Spontaneous Listing Mystery

[palmetto32]

wondered if anyone has had any spontaneous listing in their Ericson?

And looking for specific information about the construction of my hull and keel... I can't find water but am starting to believe that somehow water has gotten into the hull. Is it hollow.

Here are some more clues:
no evidence of water (there was some in the bilge, but I spent the weekend aboard and did not hear the bilge pump run at all, which to me means that no water is 'accumulating', but that the water got in from a recent rain) More to come on that nothing of significant weight has been removed, nothing of significant weight has been added as cargo. Can't explain the sudden weight distribution, but seriously concerned.

she's listing a couple of degrees, noticeable to the eye, but not uncomfortable to be aboard.

I inspected the hull yesterday with a diver, we did not see any evidence of a leak or significant damage. She def needs a paint job on my next haul out, but again, nothing alarming was noted and my diver said he sees plenty of worse paint jobs

 

[Rick R.]

Could be rain water that runs down the inside of the mast collecting. Another thing to consider is what equipment do you have onboard?

Our boat has a 16,000 BTU air conditioner I installed on the port side. Water tanks maybe?

 

[Navman]

listing

My Ericson 38 has a list to starboard. I do not believe this is unusual. As I understand it most Ericsons have a list to one side or the other. When I fill up my fuel tank (port side) it evens out pretty well. My Ericson has the galley, oven, refrigerator and 25 gallon water tank all on the starboard side which adds considerable weight. Not to mention the cockpit bench stowage is also on the starboard side as well as some of the bigger interior storage areas. I offset it by trying to keep the fuel tank full (port), stowing all of my tools and spares on the port side and keeping my inflatable in the port shower area.

Have fun and remember..keep the round side down!

 

[markvone]

palmetto32,

I am familiar with listing issues as the E36RH is fairly light, wide and has large capacity tanks located port and starboard that need to be balanced. I am not familiar with the tank layout of the E32-2 but
here are some ideas:

The hull is solid glass and can not fill with water. The keel is a part of the molded hull and may have empty space that could hold water, but the space is fairly small and on the centerline so the boat should sink down a little but not list to either side. I wouldn't fear leaking seawater causing a list on a sailboat, everything should drain to the bilge on centerline unless it can get trapped in an area without limber holes. It's almost certainly weight moving side to side. Are your tanks (fuel, water, holding) on centerline or offset to one side like mine?

My first guess is: Did your water tank or more likely your pressure water lines have a leak that emptied the water tank into a hidden space or the bilge (maybe even pumped overboard by bilge pump) causing the list? Same for the fuel tank, although you would see or smell this. Did you pump the holding tank?. Did you add water or fuel? Was someone else possibly involved that did one or more of these?

Mark

 

[PDX]

Echo what Markvone said.

There is no triaxial force grid on an E-32-2. Everything drains to the center (the bilge) except for maybe the insulation around the icebox. Its possible a leaking stanchion, or other deck hardware, could cause water incursion into the icebox insulation. It happened on my boat (E-30). But it would take a tremendous amount of water saturation to cause a list. It was trivial on my boat and probably had been leaking for years.

One thing puzzles me. When you say, "Spontaneous," do you mean the list is intermittent, comes and goes?

 

[palmetto32]

Could be rain water that runs down the inside of the mast collecting. Another thing to consider is what equipment do you have onboard?

hmmm, could be, I had a hole drilled in the mast last year to tie down a loose wire that had been clanging and bothering my neighbors. Imagine it would require a ton of water to accumulate in order to cause a list (the hole is only a 1/4 inch or so)

also doesn't explain why I just noticed it... seems to have happened overnight

 

[palmetto32]

My Ericson 38 has a list to starboard. I do not believe this is unusual. As I understand it most Ericsons have a list to one side or the other. When I fill up my fuel tank (port side) it evens out pretty well. My Ericson has the galley, oven, refrigerator and 25 gallon water tank all on the starboard side which adds considerable weight. Not to mention the cockpit bench stowage is also on the starboard side as well as some of the bigger interior storage areas. I offset it by trying to keep the fuel tank full (port), stowing all of my tools and spares on the port side and keeping my inflatable in the port shower area.

My gear is stowed pretty evenly (and hasn't changed too much at all). My water storage is under the v berth and on the centerline... same with the fuel tank which sits at the stern.

I did recently remove the old septic tank which sat on the port side (could help explain a starboard list), but it wasn't large and was mostly cleaned out.

I'll take some pics of the list and will have one of the deckhands at the marina stand with me on the port side to attempt to determine how much weight it would take to offset the list.

I also cleaned out the bilge yesterday, dried it with paper towels, and since we've had no rain in the past 24 hours, if there is any water in the bilge, it would mean that there is in fact water down below.

Which raises the question of 'WHERE'. Which is more concerning to me than 'HOW' it got there.

One more clue I just remembered.... In searching for water, I pulled the cushions out of the v-berth and opened a locker in the bow, on the starboard side. I reached my arm all the way inside and down toward the center line of the boat, where I felt a pouch with maps inside. I pulled it out and opened the pouch and it was moist/damp, not soaking.

So since we're all agreeing that water drains to the center and out the bilge, and if my bilge isn't filling, then where might that pocket be in the bow (almost like it's under the starboard side lockers, but below or separated from the bilge with no drain to the bilge.

Thanks for your interest.

 

[Christian Williams]

Redistribute weight aboard. That's all it is. A few cases of Coke may do it.

Once you notice something, it grows in importance. New data drives out the old.

Unless, of course, you are sitting on the bottom at low tide....

 

[palmetto32]

Echo what Markvone said.

There is no triaxial force grid on an E-32-2. Everything drains to the center (the bilge) except for maybe the insulation around the icebox. Its possible a leaking stanchion, or other deck hardware, could cause water incursion into the icebox insulation. It happened on my boat (E-30). But it would take a tremendous amount of water saturation to cause a list. It was trivial on my boat and probably had been leaking for years.

One thing puzzles me. When you say, "Spontaneous," do you mean the list is intermittent, comes and goes?

I say spontaneous to mean that I see my boat almost daily for the past two years and only noticed it this month... I'm pretty observant of the mast as I approach the marina, and always pick out my mast while walking up the docks. One particular day I thought to myself, "self, my mast looks like it's leaning to the starboard side". It was. I confirmed it with several others and have asked for advice from anyone who has worked on her, everyone agrees with the sudden list, but we all keep scratching our heads.

 

[palmetto32]

Redistribute weight aboard. That's all it is. A few cases of Coke may do it.

Once you notice something, it grows in importance. New data drives out the old.

Unless, of course, you are sitting on the bottom at low tide....

will determine 'how much weight' it would take to redistribute and offset the list. No low tide, she sits in 20 feet of water at low tide.

Thanks, Christian and all others who've taken the time to respond

 

[Loren Beach]

could it be your "point of reference"

I say spontaneous to mean that I see my boat almost daily for the past two years and only noticed it this month... I'm pretty observant of the mast as I approach the marina, and always pick out my mast while walking up the docks. One particular day I thought to myself, "self, my mast looks like it's leaning to the starboard side". It was. I confirmed it with several others and have asked for advice from anyone who has worked on her, everyone agrees with the sudden list, but we all keep scratching our heads.

The amount of list you are seeing is not many degrees, and given the weight of your model it would take a fairly large movement of inside weight to change how it sits/floats.
I have a question from another perspective. So, after months, the list appears suddenly... And for the sake of discussion, you have not found something inside like a newly-empty tank that would explain this. So, let's consider your reference point: the mast.

Have a close up and personal look at the chain plate and attachment inside, and on deck. There is an outside chance that the hull is floating the same and the spar has assumed a slight tilt.

Having the plate and bolts move up a bit in a water-damaged bulkhead might allow for this. Maybe. I only say that because there is a 70's E-35-2 in my area that had his starboard chainplate pull up an inch through the deck. They immediately took stress off their rig and the problem went no further at the time -- later they repaired the bulkhead and re-fastened the chainplate. So, do have a look at the inside under the deck on both sides.

Loren

 

[palmetto32]

The amount of list you are seeing is not many degrees, and given the weight of your model it would take a fairly large movement of inside weight to change how it sits/floats.
I have a question from another perspective. So, after months, the list appears suddenly... And for the sake of discussion, you have not found something inside like a newly-empty tank that would explain this. So, let's consider your reference point: the mast.

Have a close up and personal look at the chain plate and attachment inside, and on deck. There is an outside chance that the hull is floating the same and the spar has assumed a slight tilt.

Having the plate and bolts move up a bit in a water-damaged bulkhead might allow for this. Maybe. I only say that because there is a 70's E-35-2 in my area that had his starboard chainplate pull up an inch through the deck. They immediately took stress off their rig and the problem went no further at the time -- later they repaired the bulkhead and re-fastened the chainplate. So, do have a look at the inside under the deck on both sides.

Loren

thank you, Lauren, I thought of that too, chain plate seems okay, actually had the bolted shroud plate repaired when we bought her two years ago. All the rigging appears okay, and my rigger agrees it's not the mast.

also doesn't explain the measurement I got at the waterline. she's a good 3 inches lower on the starboard side than the port side. I marked the new water line to determine if the list is changing by that measurement.

To be continued...

 

[toddster]

My boat has this horrible port list which is bugging me more and more to the point that I don't put anything at all in the sail locker, unless it's, like, styrofoam or something. It's because the PO added a steel range to the galley, the sail locker and the hanging locker are also port, and I added a nav station on port. All the lockers starboard are empty, unless I load up for a cruise. The water tank and holding tank are starboard, but usually empty.

Recently, I remembered that I am carrying a sensitive clinometer around in my pocket all the time (there's an app for that...) and measured this disgusting list. It is... 0.8 degrees. If I sit on the starboard settee, the list is... 0.0 degrees. I also checked out the V-berth, which seems to slope the wrong way, so I always sleep head to bow... It's perfectly flat. So much for my perceptions. Maybe nobody else notices it?

So, not as bad as I thought. But I'm thinking that the COG being off is maybe the explanation for why my boat is faster on one tack than the other. (Well, also maybe more algae on the side moored toward the south.).

One more observation... When my boat was hauled, the yard guys just jammed the mast back on at quite an angle (though they charged hours of labor to do so.) Not only was the mast crooked, but that much weight leaning over made the boat list too.

 

[Christian Williams]

The E38 is plenty sensitive too.

With my fuel tank currently dead empty (50g) there is a distinct list to starboard.

When we left the three disconnected batteries on the starboard settee for a day, the boat looked like it was going to windward in 15 knots.

 

[palmetto32]

photos of Grey Finn, listing starboard

here she is leveled off with about 350lbs of dock hands on the port side

here is my level showing the list starboard at about 2 degrees (without deckhands offsetting the list)

possible culprit: my bilge seems to be hollow underneath with release vents off to the side... is this after market? could it explain water intrusion to somewhere?

this is the 'vent' I describe in the bilge pictured above. its hard to tell, but the space on the left of the photo is apparently the hull of the boat, and the space on the right is a 'built up bilge' which houses my float switch and my actual bilge pump. could water be getting 'under the actual bilge' and not being pumped out by the bilge pump?

at least now I know where water is intruding... this scupper has a leak at the hose underneath it. I sealed it for a quick fix today and will repair the hose this weekend. Explains why so much water is getting into the bilge. PROBLEM. I had a problem with the bilge a while back, and it seemed it wasn't doing it's job.QUESTION: DID WATER GET UNDER MY BILGE PUMP AND IS IT BEING STORED SOMEWHERE AGAINST THE HULL.

In any event, I've now ruled out a leak under the boat. I've also determined that the amount of weight it would take to offset the list is about 350lbs (or approx. 44 gallons of water). Can't imagine where 44 gallons of water would be stored on the starboard side (the amount I'm theoretically offsetting). I'll also assume that my displacement is off, so that will explain a portion of the 44 gallons of water theory.

Is it possible that when my port side dock line pulled the hull up in the air, that whatever water was in the transom/bilge/hull was displaced and spilled on the starboard side, causing the 'spontaneous list'?

 

[James Skok]

Where's the list Waldo?

I once had water that had collected in the overhead near the base of the mast. I actually heard it slosh around as I moved about the boat. I didn't observe any list from it. I removed the water by drilling a small hole and it drained out. I don't know how it got in there nor has it reoccurred. At least I don't think it has. There is no longer a sloshing sound and I don't plan on drilling any more holes in the overhead to fing out. There are other projects and tasks on the to do list that crave attention.