Spinnaker dimensions....

[ted_reshetiloff]

Foxtrot is the boat Chris has sailed on. I raced against him on my friends Mount Gay 30 earlier this summer. On the headsails, PHRF on the Chesapeake asssumes you will be flying a 155 and bases rating on that. No change in rating if you say you are only going to use a 145. At least thats what I was told. Same with the kites. They assume you will be using max girth. They will hit your rating for going over a 155 or exceeding max girth or using an oversized pole.

I am pretty sure I will be keeping the furler on, taking the credit and flying the sails from the drums. That being said I guess I need to take some measurements as I doubt I have the full 50' of I available. I am going to be working on the boat all next week and will check it then. Also does anyone kn owwhat size luff tape the Harken II furler takes? Guess I can get tha calipers out on that too but maybe someone here already knows. Seth if you already have an idea of what those luff, leech and foot dimensions are let er rip!

Regarding the sprit we are thinking of trying to incorporate some articulation but may be limited by the space around the stem fitting. Thoughts are that we would affix the aft end of the sprit to a car and put it on a short piece of track. Need to take some measurements and see if we can make it work without reinventing the wheel.

 

[Seth]

Thanks

Thanks for clearing up the local PHRF deal-that is the common interpretation.

I am curious as to why you don't think you have the full "I" available?? This is not something you can measure exactly with a tape, since the base of "I" is not a mark on the boat, and is really an engineering number.

If you do not have the short rig, then you can assume your I is standard, and have the sails built for that. It just means your kites will have the longest possible luff.

The headsail dimensions are determined more by J and Headstay length than by I-and it is 100% CRITICAL that you give your sailmaker (or have him measure) the max available luff length on YOUR boat before building or modifying a sail for you. But even if this is a bit short (from the fuurler, some forward rake, etc.), this only means the headsails are cut accordingly, but does not mean your mast is short.

If you take a tape from absolute full hoist on the genoa halyard, down to the deck at the base of the upper shroud chainplates, you should be slightly under 50'. If you get 49 feet, there may be a problem, but I doubt it. Remember, though, it is almost impossible for a layperson to measure I with any accuracy....

Harken II should take the 6mm luff tape-this is on the Harken site. I am waiting for an answer on those sail dimensions-which are only close approximations-but in the ballpark.


Got it? Cool!

S

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

When I was speaking of I I actually was referrin gto luff length. I just figured given the furler my luff is going to be shorter than if I was using a tuff luff. I am going to measure available luff today and will post. I wonder if you would have the numbers for a good AP assym for this boat. I am going to look for one used but doubt I will find one.

Thanks,

 

[Mark F]

"The idea of those aftermarket sprits is GREAT-even better if you make it articluate some so it can "square" back a little when running.... "

Here's one on a Freedom.
Mark

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Thanks for the pic! Thats exactly what I had in mind. The trouble with doing it on the 38 is the pulpit/stem fitting/ furler set up. There is not enough room to do it without making some major changes. I am looking at a method that will use part of the anchor roller to support the pole but with mods. Thought is that it wil not articulate but it will get the tack out a few feet.

Measured my luff today and got 48' 5" with the furling drum all the way up. Thast shackle to shackle so I guess I would want a luff to be around 48 - 48' 2" to allow some room.

 

[Steve]

Flasher

FYI ... Here is the Flasher we run. It's not as dynamic as the set up your looking at, but it works well on our 35-3, rather simple.

Steve

 

[Seth]

About right

Ted,

For a dacron sail, figure about 5" less than max avail hoist, about 3" for a composite sail-so you are about right. It may take me until after the holdays to get you the actual sail dimensions-but they are coming..Hang in there!

Steve, nice Flasher! It looks like you may have your sheet led pretty far forward-this could be a problem when the wind is up (just like a genoa) in that your leech is not open enough and may be causing too much heel-which will give you control problems. That position might be good for deeper angles and/or very light air at closer angles-but the rule of thumb is to have top and lower telltales break evenly or the top breaking just before the bottom (nothing new there).

With kites of all kinds, and assuming you are starting from the "right spot", move the lead aft as the breeze builds, and forward (within reason, of course) as it get's lighter. Also, if you found the right spot while reaching and then bear away deeper, you may need to shove it forward to keep the top of the sail working with the sheet (now) eased farther. Again, same idea as with genoas. Nothing new here.

From that pic, it looks like you are as far fwd as you want to go-but I can only guess with that view...
Cheers!

S

 

[Roger Ware]

Ted - FYI some luff measurements

Ted, just for your interest, I was looking at some used genoas 2 years ago and thought I had 50' to play with, BUT ... my 2 existing RF genoas (Harken I I think) are 47' 1" and 47' 8" . Before I had measured them I picked up a v. nice UK gold tape drive genoa built for a Catalina 38, the luff is 49' exactly. To fit it, I have to remove the sail intake plate on the furler, slide the spinner below it, replace it, and hank the sail on the deck hook, where it is very slightly "dented" by the furler (with a split drum furler you could take it off with more work). Have done all this, it sets beautifully. But I dont think you could fit any sail with a longer luff than this.

My 2 cents worth is: measure your existing sails, not the space. And the penalty for buying a sail too long is severe (too short is not so bad).

BTW in case you are wondering why I am still interested in headsails, its because I want a nice 150% cruising genoa that I can leave on the furler.

Cheers, Roger

Kingston, ON

 

[Seth]

Thanks Rog!

Ted,
Roger makes the point perfectly. While all the 38's (normal rig) have an I of 50', the max avail host will vary from things like rake set up by the dealer/rigger, how the furler was installed by owner/rigger, etc. I have seen ranges of about 18" total on boats with furlers-much less of course on boats without them-in those cases the only variations are the VERY small production differences(maybe an inch), and rake.

This is why you need to make sure you are happy with your rake, and if so, do a shackle to shackle measurement, then deduct appropriately depending on fabric/age of sail.

I would disagree slightly with the idea of measuring sails, not boats-the reason is that (again-to differ with Rog) the penalty for a sail too long (provided it is less than a foot or so too long) is not bad at all, and if it is too short it will never fly or perform well. There are exceptions, though. Dacron and crosscut composite sails can easily be recut (shortened on the luff in this case), but "load path" sails, like Tape Drive, Tri-Radials, D4 or 3 DL, can only be trimmed a VERY small amount since as you move the attachment points away from the original corners (where the load path reinforcing is "aimed"), you no longer have the strongest threads or yarns aligned with the loads-which drastically reduces strength and will result in a sail which can distort excessively. Crosscut sails are not as critical in this respect.

Still even a Tape Drive genoa on a 38 can be shortened 6-8 inches without causing any harm or loss of integrity.

The only "penalty" for a sail too long is the $50-150 it may cost to have it properly shortened-small price to pay for a good sail (if you find one).

If you have 48'5", I would consider anything between 47.5' and 48.75', and if you find one that is a bit longer than you have space for(up to that 48.75'), but is otherwise excellent, have it shortened.

BEWARE, though-luff length is not the only issue here!!! Leech length is JUST as important. I will have a range of acceptable leech lengths for sails of about 150% very soon-and will post them. Too long a leech and the clew is in your blocks or on deck, and even if it just barely works (trims well), you will have lousy visibility.Too high a clew and you may not have enough track length to get a good lead position, and it will not point as high....
If any of you have a genoa on a furler of about this size, and happens to have the real luff, leech and foot dimensions, please post them and I can explain the areas to consider-otherwise as soon as I get them I will post 'em!

Cheers again!

S

 

[Roger Ware]

encouraging - sort of

Seth, Ted - Seth, I'm guessing that you type pretty fast!

Anyhow, you should have listened to the supercilious chortle of my local sailmaker when I asked him if he could shorten my tape drive sail to put on the furler (Hah)! For exactly the reasons you outline. Actually, now that I know what kind of sail it is, I dont think that I would want to leave it on the furler anyway. But it is a bit of a pain to rig.

My point was that if you are trying to save money on a used sail, you could easily lose all that and more when you pay to have a sailmaker recut the sail.

Cheers, Roger

 

[Seth]

Thanks Mark F

Mark,

Thanks for reminding me of the Freedom set up! In fact, Freedom designer Gary Hoyt (a genius, by the way), has marketed this thing-I think it is called a "gun mount", and may still be available for production boats-worth looking into....

Cheers,

Seth

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Spoke to my Quantum guy yesterday about sails. They are running a special if I order before year end. 15% off. Wow big special... Anyway we talked about PHRF on the Chesapeake and specifically the furler credit. One aspect I was not aware of it the requirement that the sail have tafetta on at least one side and there were some other stips about uv covers. The purpose of this was to prevent folks from going out and buying a 3DL or similar full on racing sail and using the furler to get the 6 second credit. So this limits my ability to locate a used light #1 racing sail that I can still take the credit on. I don't have a split drum furler so removing it for racing would be a pain.

So now I am thinking about a new headsail for my furler that will probably be around 145%. If I can find a 155 that will work within the limits great. With the 38 I think once TWS hits 8kts the 155 would be too big anyway even with 10 people on the boat but maybe not.

I would love to know leech,luff and foot numbers on a good AP assym for this boat so I can focus on that in the used market first I think. This way Assuming I order a new 145% in a laminate similar to my main, I will really just need a decent kite to race with. I can save me sheckles until I can afford a 155 that will be legal, and of course a kevlar or carbon #3.

Q recommended Dimension CX6T for 60% of the sail and CX5T for the other 40%. This is the laminate that my main is in just different weight. I have been very pleased with it so far as it seems to be a good blend of durable crusing sail with low stretch of a racing sail. Price for a 140% from Quantum with 15% off $3963. My guess is a 145% would be a little more, but still not too bad IMHO.

Seth what about this sail: 48'3" luff, 24'6", foot, 45'10" leech? Looks like somewhere around a 150%, tri-radial, 3.6oz Mylar, 3.6 oz. Mylar/kevlar leech panels, by shore 7/32 tape, tt window, draft stripes, $200... Bacons.

 

[Seth]

sizes

Ted,

Who are are you working with at Q? As far as the PHRF stuff goes, I would not be concerned with the performance of a RF genoa if it has the DACRON UV cover on the leech and foot-it is the sunbrella stuff that is slow.

Also, a lot of guys who have furlers, even the split drum types, are not bothering to remove the lower drum any more-they just tack the longer luff, non furling sail to the regular tack fitting, and let the bottom 12-16" bend around the drum-some even fit some extra chafe protection around that part of the sail. Don't get me wrong, it is obviously better to remove it, but folks are lazy, and this seems to work ok-

I agree with you on the 155% sizing issue, and even if you find one, you have to be careful about the amount of track-you can JUST barely get a real 155% to sheet right, but the clew must be quite low to have enough adjustment. We usually stay with 152-153% to make sure we have enough adjustment range-the track is not quite long enough (unless you go with a low clewed sail, which is not so good for furling...You are also right that in any amount of breeze, the 155 becomes too much very soon-especially if you are not stacking the rail with crew.

I like the idea of a 145%-especially if you can get some LP credit-this will be a far more versatile sail for you-and stay with the full sized AP A-sail for off the wind work.

As I said, those dimensions should be here soon, but your Q guy should be able to give you this straight off his pricing program. The kite sizes are more generic than the genoa sizes-his program will give SUGGESTED leech, luff and foot numbers, but there are only guesses and the boat must be measured. Since the kites are I and J based and do not have to fit any tracks, those sizes are easy to figure. Still I am waiting for some numbers to post.

Those materials have always worked well for me-and the prices sound very fair.

That Shore sail sounds reasonable, but is OLD, OLD (Shore has not made big boat sails for a long time). I would not buy it unless I could have it inspected by someone local, and then take those dimensions, and using your headstay length, see how it will fit your boat. Where is the clew height? Do you have enough track, etc. Also, don't you need 6MM tape?

I hope this helps!

S

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Quantum guy is Tad Hutchins. He has been great with the main. We went sailing a few months ago and he said there was a problem with the location of the reef cringles on the luff and that they needed to be moved fwd. I am giving him the sail next week. He recommended 140-145%. He said he could give me the leec numbers but would be better if he came and measured. I agree. The only reason he was in a rush to quote me a sail is to get in on end of the year pricing which is 15% off. Dont think the wife is going to let me make that deposit in time so we will probably wait until spring. I will ask Tad for his suggested numbers on an A sail tomorrow when I break the news to him that I wont be ordering just yet.

I am going to look at the shore sail tomorrow. It is old, it is cheap. I can run it up on the boat and see how I like it. I worked for Bacons for several years and have a great relationship with the owner Dixie and her nephew Steve. Sail is probably not worth it but is worth a look.

 

[Seth]

That'll work!

Tad is awesome-actually one of the best guys there. One of the few guys in that industry you NEVER hear a bad word about (you can tell him I said so).

He is 100i% right about holding off on leech dimensions for the reasons we have been discussing-the best he can do until he measures is a guess within about 12"-so that is the right call for sure.

And as far as the A-sail dimensions-those will be almost perfect just as they come off his price program for a full sized sail-they may tweak things slightly when they get the order, but the dimensions he can give you from the program will be all max size (with no penalty).

So those will be good comparison numbers to use if you shop for a used sail. One advantage of having one purpose built is they can optimize the foot and leech length to make sure you can get a good lead for reachng and deeper sailing, etc..I think we have beat that theme to death., though.

You are on the right track, though-keep us posted!

S

 

[Seth]

Ted-I got some furling dimensions for the regular 38's with 50' "I" and the 381 with the 47' "I". The no rake max headstay should be about 52.7 feet, so a furling sail will have a luff of about 1.5-2.5 feet less. The short rig will have a HS of about just under 50', so the avail length for a furler should be about 48 or so....this is suggesting you have the short rig, or a seriously forward raked mast... These dimensions are for 150% furling sails we have built for both rigs:

Luff = 50.15
Leech = 47.15
Foot = 26.27
LP = 24.38

The Ericson 381 has an I of 47 and a J of 16.25.
Luff = 47.31
Leech = 44.47
Foot = 26.39
LP = 24.38
Also note that the sizes of genoas are NOT determined by leech, luff and foot, but by LP. The number you gave for the foot happens to be the exact LP for a 155%-the foot for a 155 will be longer-I just want to make this often confusing question as clear as I can. So, if you want something bigger than these, I would allow maybe an LP of about 25.5, and a leech maybe 3" longer than those shown (to keep it near the top lifeline)-the luff length you already know. Let's be clear on what you have: clipping the halyard to the shackle on the TOP of the top drum, and the tape to the BOTTOM of that top drum, and hoisting it all the way up, and measuring to the shackle on the top of the lower drum, you see 48 and some change, right? This is about 4' less than the full HS length for the 50' I, and we normally deduct 18-24" for furling (again-measuring each boat is important). If you use a sail that is less than 48' on the luff, it SHOULD be 2' short of what should be available-approximately..

Let's double check these and what rig you really have, OK?

Later!
S