Shopping for a new main sail and had a few questions...

[Jason G]

I am in the Seattle area and have been shopping for a new main sail for my 87' E34-2. I have considered adding a 3rd reef point. For sure the sail will have 2 full battens and I may even go with all of them as full battens. Looking for opinions and feedback from others that have gone this route. The idea is to not use a tri-sail and the even better idea is to plan ahead and not be caught in a situation where I NEED a tri-sail.

I'm also curious if anyone has complaints from the loads and frictions of a full batten main using the original mast track and slug set up on later built 80's & 90's E32,34,35,38 boats? The tides strong track is pretty sweet but due to the cost I'm not sure if it really is enough of an improvement over a clean and properly lubricated OEM set up to justify adding one to the boat.

-Jason

 

[Christian Williams]

I like a third reef as a trysail substitute. But it has to be very deep--about the same size as a trysail would be.

We will rarely use a third reef because the boats usually sail well under a scrap of jib alone (main down).

 

[Tom Metzger]

I'm also curious if anyone has complaints from the loads and frictions of a full batten main using the original mast track and slug set up on later built 80's & 90's E32,34,35,38 boats? The tides strong track is pretty sweet but due to the cost I'm not sure if it really is enough of an improvement over a clean and properly lubricated OEM set up to justify adding one to the boat.

I have all full battens on my E-34 and there is a lot of effort required to get the main up. I usually pull it up from the mast and let the admiral tension it with the winch. I don't have any track improvements. Helping her seriously extends my sailing life.

 

[steven]

Tides system

on my E35-2 (1976), very happy with full battens and Tides system. Tides installation near top of my list of best upgrades. Essentially frictionless raising, reefing and (with lazy jacks) drops down fast and smooth. Can easily tension with the winch (on the mast). Only problem is increased the size of the stack - so I will be adding a step on the mast so I can reach high enough to get the sail cover on.


--Steve

 

[Rick R.]

When our local sail guru made our main two years ago, he gave us full battens, two reef points and the loose foot. We installed the Tides track last spring and it is fantastic! It gives me great joy to see the sail crash down immediately when lowered. It also enables me to raise the main from the helm singlehanded without the need for the winch (until the sail is completely up and I just want to take the last wrinkle out of the luff).

 

[Loren Beach]

"Send for a Leech!" yelled the doctor...

Some dimly remembered perspective:
In the early 80's I recall crewing on a boat with the "newest thing", full battens. This did several things that benefited the boat and also the sailmaker.

The added roach area was quite large compared to a traditional main. The added area and the whole main also had good shape due to the battens. On the downside we had to force that leach around the backstay where it hung up on every single tack or jibe in lighter airs.
It was also different in flaking on the boom -- you just pulled the battens into order on top and the cloth pretty much had to follow. There was some downside in that the weight aloft went up.
On the whole it seemed like a good idea compared to traditional batten schemes.
For everyday sailing, it was marvelous (!) to no longer have all that shaking and sail cloth noise (and damage) while luffing up.
Hoisting, reefing, and lowering got a LOT quieter.
This was before the plastic "strong track" came into vogue as I recall.

For the sailmaker it was a solid win. The extra cost of added cloth and added batten sewing was more than offset by the trendiness that attracted the buyers. Sailmakers could use cheaper cloth since the battens supported the designed "shape" -- this was like the hugely successful Hobie Cats with their full batten mains in the 70's. The Hobie could use cheaper material and still have decent sail shape; and given the high loads from driving on one hull as the apparent wind always went forward to a high-pressure close-hulled trim often, made the sails last well too.

By the time we get to, roughly, the 90's, sailmakers were pulling back from the earlier extreme of all-full-battens. Customers were vexed by the friction on the slugs, even using the longer slugs at the batten points. Hardware designers came out with specialized slug replacements for big $$, and finally the plastic insertable track system from Strong, combined with purpose-designed slugs made the hoisting a LOT easier. (even bigger $$$$)

Sailmakers then started leading their customers back towards the "2 + 2" batten design, which gives the sail about 70% of the benefits of the all-full-length idea with a lot less hoisting and dropping friction hassles.
As an example, we have never needed to install a Strong track system on our boat with our 2 + 2 batten system. I do spray all the slugs with 'MacLube' once or twice a season.
Our sail is quiet when luffing.
Cost is reasonable too, compared to a design having all panels shaped into load path patterns or having the whole sail "molded" out.

Having said all that, I would probably buy a Tape Drive main if replacing this one, just 'cause I like the looks! (Logic and boat ownership are concepts often foreign to each other...)


Pontificating performed while U wait.
Cheers,
Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

My next mainsail will also have full-length battens on the top two only, as I am happy with current rig. And maybe because I have taken a full-length batten in the eye a couple of times over the years.

For me, the great attribute of the Tides track is that the sail comes down fast, whereas it previously often hung up. Reefing under load (downwind) is easier.

Tides did not make a big change in hoisting the sail, which is only 200 square feet. I still tend to do that at the mast, to avoid the 90-degree turn at the deck block. Tighten the luff with the winch.

A new mainsail is one of the most exciting upgrades to any boat, and one we always put off too long.

 

[toddster]

I have little direct knowledge of this. Other than, as Loren said, the full battens on my old Hobie16 helped the tired old sail hold it's shape amazingly well.

I deferred to my sail maker, who counseled that full battens are not really compatible with the original track, due to forces involved. A nice new track system was just not feasibly within the budget, this go-round.

 

[supersailor]

Third reef

Jason,

I rarely tuck the second reef in on my 34. The 34 sails extremely well under just a little jib when it is snorting out. I tuck the first reef in at about 17 knots and just drop the main at about 22 knots. The boat is just as fast with just the jib without the mainsail hassle. The biggest problem I see with the third reef is that big old boom thrashing around. I normally sail with a 130 jib and have a 70 available.

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

I just ordered a new main for Sail a Vie my E35-MKII. Two reefs, two full battens and two partial battens. I find it easier to trim the sail correctly if it doesn’t have full battens.

In the winter of 2004 I bought a new Tape Drive main from UK Sails. I was outfitting for the single handed Trans Pac Race from San Francisco to Kauai that summer. I had done the 2000 race and return with a Dacron main with three reefs. The race equipment rules say a third reef or a trysail. Here are the specs on storm sails for offshore racing:
4.52 Storm sails.
[a] Mainsails and Trysails.
[1] A storm trysail capable of being sheeted independently of the boom, of an area not greater than 17.5% of mainsail luff length x mainsail foot length. It shall have neither headboard nor battens. A method of attaching the trysail to the mast shall be provided. The yacht's sail number and letter(s) shall be placed on both sides of a trysail in as large a size as is practicable, OR
[2] Mainsail reefing to reduce the luff length by at least 40%, but which does not obscure the appearance of the yacht's sail numbers.
Headsails
[1] If the rig is of a type on which a headsail is commonly used, then a storm jib shall be provided which attaches to a stay by a strong and secure method, is of an area not greater than 5% of the height of the foretriangle squared, and has a luff no longer than 65% of the height of the foretriangle, OR
[2] A heavy weather jib of 85% LP or less, of non-aramid fiber construction, that does not contain battens.
So, I ordered my new sail with a third reef. I never added the third reef lines to the rig. My main already had two reefs plus a shelf flattener on the leach so I figured if I ever needed a third reef I could drop the sail and use one of the other reef lines for the third and then raise the sail. A terrible plan that I really never planned on doing.

As others have said, these boats sail really well under jib alone. I have even started and finished races in SF Bay under jib alone.

When I was preparing for the 2006 SSS Trans Pac I bought another new Tape Drive but with only two reefs. Then I bought a storm trysail from sail warehouse. I never added a second track for it on the mast but I met the rules.
This also is a terrible plan because if you ever really needed a storm trysail, good luck getting the main off the track and the trysail on and rigged!

So if you choose to have a third reef put into your sail, or buy a trysail, and its by your choice not to meet a rule. Then also arrange your boat in such a way that you could actually use either of those sails if you ever wanted to.

I have never tucked in a third reef or used my trysail. 6 trips between Hawaii and SF and two times SF Mexico and back.

If it was me (and it is in my case ) I would spend the money elsewhere and sail under very small jib alone.

 

[Christian Williams]

It is easy to set up the third reef, since the first two reefs are already in. Borrow the reef line from the first reef, put in through the third ring, and bowline around the boom (loose-footed main).

On the 32-3, at least, my self-steering vane prefers a bit of mainsail when close reaching below 30 knots. But its jib alone after that.

Man, do I agree it's a joke to plan on setting a trysail shorthanded as the weather falls apart!

 

[Jason G]

All this feedback is greatly appreciated. I've been getting some quotes rolling back in and prices are about what I expected. One more option to consider is Radial vs' Cross cut. (both would be Dacron fabric)

Would it be possible that a radial cut 2+2 type main vs' a cross cut full batten main would be easier to trim properly and maintain similar shape holding ability over the life of the sail with out the added drag when hoisting and chafe issues typically associated with a full batten main? Sure they cost a little bit more but the difference is less than the cost of a Tides strong track.

There seems to be some information that the fabric used on radial cut sails is less UV stable than what's used on cross cut sails? There are no plans to go cruising in this boat outside the NW anytime soon so I'm not that worried.

Right now I'm leaning toward a North Sails main


-Jason

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

I can't speak to the radial sail question as I've never had one. But just so you and everyone else knows, I recently added a Tides Strong Track system. I had a couple of quotes from sail makers then I went straight to Tides Marine. They sold it to me several hundred dollars less than my lowest quote from a sailmaker.
What I got was:
2 batten slides
3 reef slides, at the time I had not made a decision on the third reef.
1 headboard slide
14 regular luff slides
38 feet of track for 7/8 external track

Total cost including shipping was $905.31 no sales tax (but of course I will make sure and pay that on my own

 

[Christian Williams]

Phil's price is good.

Here's what I paid a rigger to do it--on a 32-foot boat with two FL battens. Some sails might need a sailmaker to attach the Tides slugs, although mine didn't.

It's an easy installation, as you can see by the labor cost. With big benefits.

SALESPERSON	JOB	PAYMENT TERMS	DUE DATE
Dylan		Due on receipt

<tbody>
</tbody>

qty	description	unit price	line total
1	Strong track		$1017.00
	Labor: Install strong track and sail		$150.00

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[Shelman]

Jason, I have a full batten main running on the kenyon mast track. I originally had the sail fitted with roller cars only at the battens but I soon replaced the remaining slugs with roller cars as well. The new set up has slightly less friction than the old non batten sail with the original slugs. I am happy with the full batten main and I would go with a full batten main again if I had the choice to make over again. I also considered switching to a strong track system but the roller cars were cheaper. My brother has the strong track set up on his 30' trimaran with a full batten main and I would say he has just slightly less friction in his track system than mine.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Jason, I have a full batten main running on the kenyon mast track. I originally had the sail fitted with roller cars only at the battens but I soon replaced the remaining slugs with roller cars as well. The new set up has slightly less friction than the old non batten sail with the original slugs. I am happy with the full batten main and I would go with a full batten main again if I had the choice to make over again. I also considered switching to a strong track system but the roller cars were cheaper. My brother has the strong track set up on his 30' trimaran with a full batten main and I would say he has just slightly less friction in his track system than mine.

Randy,
I've also got a full battened main and the same mast as you do. What did it cost you to retrofit your main with all roller cars instead of slugs? And can you provide a link to the ones that fit our track?

 

[Jason G]

So after reviewing multiple quotes I decided to give North Sails my business. The pice from multiple lofts including Precision Sails up in Canada which is where I purchased the mainsail for my last boat from was all about the same. The customer service from the North loft here in Seattle has always been the best. They answer my questions, are not pushy, know their products, and prices are fair and comparable. I went with one of their premium paneled 200 series NorDac Radian radial cut mains with 2 full top battens, two reef points, loose foot, and "Allslip" luff slugs. I really like North Sails full batten front loading batten box design with the adjustable tension screw. The boat will be measured this week and I'll be working with the loft on the details such as how deep to make each reef point and how much roach to add to the sail. I spent a lot of time talking with Jon at the Seattle North Sails loft about what works best for performance cruising here in the PNW and up into Canada or SE Alaska which is what the majority of their customers do. I feel good about the purchase and look forward to the rest of the design process. Delivery will be around the end of March. I was able to get boat show discount's before the boat show and be close to the top of the list as far as delivery times. Thank you to everyone that shared ideas and comments.

-Jason

 

[Shelman]

Randy,
I've also got a full battened main and the same mast as you do. What did it cost you to retrofit your main with all roller cars instead of slugs? And can you provide a link to the ones that fit our track?

Alan,
I paid a bit under $1,500 for the new set of sails and all hardware but I cant remember how much of that was the roller cars. I'll take a look at the cars tonight and post a link. I cant remember the brand name of the cars, they were not a name I had herd of before.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Alan,
I paid a bit under $1,500 for the new set of sails and all hardware but I cant remember how much of that was the roller cars. I'll take a look at the cars tonight and post a link. I cant remember the brand name of the cars, they were not a name I had herd of before.

Thanks, Randy. I'll look forward to getting that info. My slugs work OK, but it would be nice to reduce the friction.

 

[Shelman]

Thanks, Randy. I'll look forward to getting that info. My slugs work OK, but it would be nice to reduce the friction.

Bingo! I remembered the brand. "Luffshuttle" There is err... not much info online unless you speak french. But you can order them easily from Mac Sails if needed and I can probably answer any question you would have.