Self-Tailing Winches
- Thread starter jamescio
- Start date
For your 30 footer, I would suggest something in the 43 to 46 size range, nothing smaller. :nerd:
Self Tailing is a super-helpful mature technology these days and I would not sail without it.
Presume you are talking about the primaries mounted on the cockpit combings.
Did you notice that Lewmar 2 for price of 1 sale advertised recently @ West Marine? That was a really good deal.
If you are also considering an upgrade to the house top winch(es), do not go below a size 30ST. Our current boat has those and they are the absolute minimum for hauling an mature adult human up the mast. (And some folks think those are only for raising sails!)
Cheers,
Loren
Self Tailing is a super-helpful mature technology these days and I would not sail without it.
Presume you are talking about the primaries mounted on the cockpit combings.
Did you notice that Lewmar 2 for price of 1 sale advertised recently @ West Marine? That was a really good deal.
If you are also considering an upgrade to the house top winch(es), do not go below a size 30ST. Our current boat has those and they are the absolute minimum for hauling an mature adult human up the mast. (And some folks think those are only for raising sails!)
Cheers,
Loren
Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
Check Minney's in Costa Mesa (Newport Beach), Calif. Until recently they had some of the larger ST winches still in stock and their price was better than even WM's recent sale price.For your 30 footer, I would suggest something in the 43 to 46 size range, nothing smaller. :nerd:
Self Tailing is a super-helpful mature technology these days and I would not sail without it.
Presume you are talking about the primaries mounted on the cockpit combings.
Did you notice that Lewmar 2 for price of 1 sale advertised recently @ West Marine? That was a really good deal.
If you are also considering an upgrade to the house top winch(es), do not go below a size 30ST. Our current boat has those and they are the absolute minimum for hauling an mature adult human up the mast. (And some folks think those are only for raising sails!)
Cheers,
Loren
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Wow Loren, really...?
HI Loren,
Our 1984 E30+ has Barient 23 ST winches in the cockpit for adjusting the headsails. I'm pretty sure they are original and they are in good shape with cleaning and greasing twice per year. With our 125% headsail and 1/2" sheets, I can usually snug them up without using the winch handle unless I'm in a really close hauled sail in winds greater than 15 knots or so. And in higher winds, the 8" winch handle does the job nicely. And I'm a relatively slight 64 year old, not a muscle man.
So I'm wondering why you are recommending a 43 - 46 ST winch and nothing smaller. That sounds quite huge for this boat, adding significant expense and looking bulkier on the coaming.
I generally really appreciate your comments and advice on this site, so keep up the good work, but I'm curious about the rationale for this recommendation.
Frank
HI Loren,
Our 1984 E30+ has Barient 23 ST winches in the cockpit for adjusting the headsails. I'm pretty sure they are original and they are in good shape with cleaning and greasing twice per year. With our 125% headsail and 1/2" sheets, I can usually snug them up without using the winch handle unless I'm in a really close hauled sail in winds greater than 15 knots or so. And in higher winds, the 8" winch handle does the job nicely. And I'm a relatively slight 64 year old, not a muscle man.
So I'm wondering why you are recommending a 43 - 46 ST winch and nothing smaller. That sounds quite huge for this boat, adding significant expense and looking bulkier on the coaming.
I generally really appreciate your comments and advice on this site, so keep up the good work, but I'm curious about the rationale for this recommendation.
Frank
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winch sizes and model numbers
IIRC, you have to nearly double the model number of the Barient to get the "power ratio" that Lewmar used. Or something like that.
Back in the 70's, Lewmar built a size 24 winch, altho by the early 80's they were selling a lot of #16 two speed and the next size was a #30 two speed.
So, however you calculate to come up with a power ratio of about 40 to 45, that's what I would suggest for a boat in the 30 to 33 foot range.
If our boat had been sold with Lewmar 55 rather than the factory "upgrade package" of the 46, we would have been really pleased.
For a boat builder, they have be competitive and almost forces them to spec out the least-expansive "standard winch" as reasonably possible, and a lot of purchasers are inexperienced and will buy based on being aboard at an indoor boat show in January. The trick is to have powerful enough winches to work sort-of-ok in 12 knots. (It's not easy making a buck building sailboats...)
Knowledgeable buyers will order winch upgrades on their new boat anyway.
After all, no one ever returns from a good day's sailing in 18+ kts and complains that the boat's winches were too powerful and too easy to use.
Loren
ps: Frank, are you sure that your primaries are not Lewmar 30ST models?
IIRC, you have to nearly double the model number of the Barient to get the "power ratio" that Lewmar used. Or something like that.
Back in the 70's, Lewmar built a size 24 winch, altho by the early 80's they were selling a lot of #16 two speed and the next size was a #30 two speed.
So, however you calculate to come up with a power ratio of about 40 to 45, that's what I would suggest for a boat in the 30 to 33 foot range.
If our boat had been sold with Lewmar 55 rather than the factory "upgrade package" of the 46, we would have been really pleased.
For a boat builder, they have be competitive and almost forces them to spec out the least-expansive "standard winch" as reasonably possible, and a lot of purchasers are inexperienced and will buy based on being aboard at an indoor boat show in January. The trick is to have powerful enough winches to work sort-of-ok in 12 knots. (It's not easy making a buck building sailboats...)
Knowledgeable buyers will order winch upgrades on their new boat anyway.
After all, no one ever returns from a good day's sailing in 18+ kts and complains that the boat's winches were too powerful and too easy to use.
Loren
ps: Frank, are you sure that your primaries are not Lewmar 30ST models?
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Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
Amen to that, Loren! I upgraded the winches on my E26-2 to Lewmar ST 30s and they are definitely overkill for that boat. But man, is it sweet cranking in that 135% genny even when the wind kicks up. Very nice when single handed and steering with a tiller extension in one hand and using the other hand to crank in the sail. No complaints!Knowledgeable buyers will order winch upgrades on their new boat anyway.
After all, no one ever returns from a good day's sailing in 18+ kts and complains that the boat's winches were too powerful and too easy to use.
Loren
On the other hand, I had Lewmar ST 40's on my old Catalina 30 and they were marginal for that boat. So I'd agree with your sizing recommendations (though the C30 was a masthead rig).
Self tailing winches.
Jim, Please don't overlook the treasure-trove of consignment chandlers all over the continent, a list of which can be easily found on the Good Old Boat web site: http://www.goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/consignment_stores.php The pair I currently have, 2-speed, self tailing Barlow #23's were the result of a search from that list. It turned out that a chandler in Wickford RI had them, sent me a digital photo and I bought them on the spot, photo attached. Had to have the chrome stripped when I got them but other than that, they were essentially good to go. As I recall they were $600.00 for the pair, a price I was more than willing to pay compared to the $1,100 per I was getting ready to fork out for a pair of new Harken's of similar size and options. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
Jim, Please don't overlook the treasure-trove of consignment chandlers all over the continent, a list of which can be easily found on the Good Old Boat web site: http://www.goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/consignment_stores.php The pair I currently have, 2-speed, self tailing Barlow #23's were the result of a search from that list. It turned out that a chandler in Wickford RI had them, sent me a digital photo and I bought them on the spot, photo attached. Had to have the chrome stripped when I got them but other than that, they were essentially good to go. As I recall they were $600.00 for the pair, a price I was more than willing to pay compared to the $1,100 per I was getting ready to fork out for a pair of new Harken's of similar size and options. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
Attachments
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Hull #55, Barlow 2-speed #23.jpg
Winches.
Jim, I stumbled into this seemingly nice pair on eBay: 182062145513 Simply copy that number and paste it in the eBay search box to see them. Good luck, Glyn
Jim, I stumbled into this seemingly nice pair on eBay: 182062145513 Simply copy that number and paste it in the eBay search box to see them. Good luck, Glyn
On a 30 footer I really struggle to see the need for self tailers. Sure it is the fashion and the amount of times I see folks claim that you must have them is staggering. Buy yourself a harken 150 cam cleat, mount it on the cockpit side aft of the winch on a little bit of an angle, and you are off and running.
The loads on that boat do not require two handed winching, and you are likely to only have a single handed winch handle anyway. Pop line out of cam cleat, grind and tail as normal, pop line back in cleat. It takes mere seconds You are talking about spending 1000 dollars here for the smaller lewmar 15 and 2k for the 30. Try the 35 dollar option on one of the winches and if it does not work then blow the 1K. I have run boats to 40 feet singlehanded using this and it works fine. For 2k go buy yourself a brand new mainsail. Or go to Europe for a week.
The loads on that boat do not require two handed winching, and you are likely to only have a single handed winch handle anyway. Pop line out of cam cleat, grind and tail as normal, pop line back in cleat. It takes mere seconds You are talking about spending 1000 dollars here for the smaller lewmar 15 and 2k for the 30. Try the 35 dollar option on one of the winches and if it does not work then blow the 1K. I have run boats to 40 feet singlehanded using this and it works fine. For 2k go buy yourself a brand new mainsail. Or go to Europe for a week.
Mort Fligelman
Member III
Alternative to self tailing winches
Thought I had replied on a similar thread a while back,
I just bought a pair of like new non self tailing Barient 18's on ebay....going to put Winchers on them.
Just my .02 worth
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?5963-Alternative-to-self-tailing-winches
Thought I had replied on a similar thread a while back,
I just bought a pair of like new non self tailing Barient 18's on ebay....going to put Winchers on them.
Just my .02 worth
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?5963-Alternative-to-self-tailing-winches
Good Sale on Used Lewmar Self Tailing 30's
Minney's yacht surplus has some Lewmar 30's and 40's on sale that look like a very good price and condition. Just scroll down the specials page. Good luck!
http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/specials/last-call-before-price-increase-lewmar-30s-40s#comments
Minney's yacht surplus has some Lewmar 30's and 40's on sale that look like a very good price and condition. Just scroll down the specials page. Good luck!
http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/specials/last-call-before-price-increase-lewmar-30s-40s#comments
Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
I never objected to the non-ST winches when I was sailing regularly with crew. But these days I single hand a great deal and adding the self tailers to my boat was one of the best upgrades I have done to it. Though I single handed the boat for a few years with the non-ST winches, it was a pain because unless I wanted to set up the tillerpilot all the time, I needed to take my hand off the tiller in order to tail the winch. So I would typically contort myself on the leeward side to steer the tiller with my hip or foot while I would tail and crank the winch, etc. Certainly doable but when it's blowing 20 or 25 knots it's just not so much fun. So while ST winches are not a necessity they sure are nice and I enjoy single handed sailing much more with them. These, and upgrading to a new Garhauer traveler, make sail trim comfortable and a joy.
One of the posts above mentions the good prices at Minney's on ST 30's and 40's. For $1000 I purchased *both* of my Lewmar ST 30's from them, new in the box. So there are deals out there if you look.
By the way: if one *does* want to buy some good used non self-tailers, Minney's has a ton of those. Not long ago they went through their entire stock of non-ST winches and tore them down and lubed them.
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Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
I'm almost positive that these are brand new, in the box--just like the ones I bought not quite a year ago.