Sail combinations for storms

Touchrain

Member III
What sail(s) do you fly in storm conditions -- say 40+ knots? How does this change with various wave conditions?

Given that I am now undertaking a year of sailing, largely offshore, on our E38, this is more than an academic exercise for me.

Thanks
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
As an owner of an E38 I have given this some thought myself. I don't know about your boat but mine is not setup in a friendly way to even reef let alone really setup for a "storm" conditions.

To even reef my boat two people is best. The main halyard is run to the cockpit so when released to hook the cringle to the rams horn at the tack, another person is handy to tension the halyard to keep it fixed. So one person at the mast and one in the cockpit. I have done it alone but its a PITA. Then the reefing lines at the clew(s) can only be tensioned by hand. There are no winches on the boom, only some small cleats. Ideally I would bring the clew reef lines back to the cockpit as well or put a winch and stoppers on the boom.

I don't like the setup, its difficult to use and use well, and delays my decision to reef which is never good.

Regarding your setup if it were me I would be looking into a removable solent stay or inner forestay. The latter with runners to support it. Then you would have the option of a dedicated heavy weather jib to hank on that would keep the sails "drive" low and closer to the center of the boat. A deep third reef on the main should be enough or a storm trysail track if you have the coin.

I think the bulkhead aft/under the anchor pan on the E38 would support either a solent or inner forstay with reinforcement.

I would be very tempted to use Spectra or Dynex Dux for the additional rigging. Its easy to work with, very strong, light, etc.

Lastly, if you have not read it, get yourself the Sept. issue of Bluewater Sailing. There is an article, "Rite of Passage" about cruisers and their E38 caught in a storm on the way to Bermuda. The only problem they had was the anchor pan/locker leaking badly. The E38 structurally was just fine.

RT

Now I don't sail in 40+kts, in fact I'm rarely out in 25kts as my reefing system sucks, so the advice is simply what I have read.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Under the heading of advice starting with "do as I say and not as I do" would be the old idea of using some loops of bungy cord at the mast. These are typically about a foot or less in diameter and secured to a small strap high enough above the gooseneck so that you have to stretch the cord tightly to get it under the tack horn. One bungy on each side of the spar.
You still have to go forward to secure the floppy ring, but once you get that floppy ring around the horn you can pull the bungy over it and the ring will stay put while you or someone else re-tensions the halyard for the reef.
Our halyard tail and also the clew reef line is winched (Lewmar 30ST) in thru clutch stoppers at the rear of the housetop on our boat. This may have been kinda standard for Ericson in the 80's, since I have observed it on other models.

I have not yet added the bungy cords, but wished I had done so for a late August cruising race of 21 miles... This would have saved me some time and frustration up at the base of the mast. We were seeing gusts of 26 to 30 kts. Fun sailing, though, with that reef in the main. :cool:

Loren
 
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windjunkee

Member III
After doing a race last winter where we saw 45 knots and it was blowing 30-40 for more than 12 straight hours, I rethought our storm set up on Voice of Reason.
I ended up working with my North Sails rep and had a staysail with an integrated Spectra stay/luff chord designed. The boat is already rigged for it, but had to reinforce the attachment point at the mast (used the spin pole topping lift).
We also have the reefing lines on the boom and it takes two to reef under pressure. We already have too many lines running back to the cockpit so we're leaving the reefing lines as is right now. If it pops up over 30, we're already on the 2nd reef though. We had our new main designed to be deeper than the old one for those really 'special days'.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA
 
Reefing

Hi,

I have an E-27, and over the years have sailed it in all kinds of stuff. But, truth be told, it is hard for me to get a fix on what your problems are from the explanation you gave. Probably just a slow brain on this end.

What I am getting is that you release the main halyard from the cockpit, so my guess is that you have a winch on the cabin roof and the main halyard goes through stopper (clutch) of some kind. That would--by my way of thinking--take care of the luff of the sail. If reefing is at hand, my assumption is that you have already tightened the outhaul all the way. There needs to be a reefing line that is dead-ended to an eye strap. My boat has a stopper knot at that end. The line leads from the eye strap through the cringle at the aft end of the first reef (the new clew when the reef is in) then down to a cheek block that changes the lead of the line so that it goes forward. When you tension this line you take the belly out of the foot of the sail and flatten it. I can do mine by hand or, if I want, lead it to a winch on the mast for more MA. Then, you can use the reef lines (nettles) to make everything shipshape, tie up the bunt. The eye strap and the cheek block have to be positioned aft of where the reefed clew will come down to the boom, so you get rearward pull.

I hope this helps. Reefing is pretty much the same on all boats, though I have sailed my own boat mostly. What I have found is that when it gets really windy, 25+, I do better from a control and comfort standpoint with just using the working jib by itself. The last time I used that sail alone we had a ball in 35+, screaming around lower Tampa Bay. You could smell the testosterone from 1/4 mile away!

Morgan Stinemetz
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Good stuff

The only thing I would add is that a winch to tighten the clew reef lines is not optional. You simply cannot get anywhere NEAR the tension you need to make the sail properly reefed and flat by hand. Trying to do so will result in a very poorly shaped sail, and there will be loads on parts of the sail which were not designed for this. You need to get all of the loads onto the tack and clrew reef cringles.

On the 38 with the reef lines coming out of the front end of the boom, they will lead very well to a snatch block on the mast collar and then aft to any free winch-they is how the boat was intended to be reefed. The original stoppers in the boom will probably not hold unless they have been replaced, so you may want to leave the reef line on a winch until you need to unreef, or reef deeper. Most boats have a permanent block for the reef lines on the mast collar and they are led aft to a set of stoppers so this can all be done from the cockpit. You can even arrange a system to pull the new tack ring down (sort of a big long cunnigham) from the cockpit. Stay away from single line reefing systems, though.

Alternatively you could cut exit slots on the side of the boom and mount a self tailing winch on the boom (not ideal, but better than nothing), or you could mount a self tailing winch on the aft face of the mast and use a block to create a fair lead to the winch from the exit blocks at the fwd end of the boom. Either of these will prevent you from having to run the reef lines aft (helps with clutter), but means someone is fwd to do this.

Hope this helps,

S
 

Touchrain

Member III
A lot of good information here. Our 38 is configured as discussed above. Two reef lines run through boom, to mast collar, and back to clutches and winches on coach roof. This part has served us well in winds to the 40s, and haven't had more than that. The one exception is that I am installing cheek blocks on the boom. The eyes that are there to change direction have just too much friction. Agree with all on comments about trying to get the floppy ties on the horn to stay while raising the halyards. We had this problem off the coast of Oregon on our second reef. Did not use the third reef, which simply has a messenger line to take the first reef line. Once the wind was into the 30s with big seas, we dropped the main and ran on a scrap of headsail. (surfing at nearly 14k) I'll try the bungy cord idea.

This configuration worked great in the conditions we were in. But running with say 80 sq ft of sail up in 35 k, it made me wonder what the heck I would do at 50 or 60, probably go straight to barepoles in the latter.

I didn't find a problem with the center of effort in the wind speeds we had, but have been toying with the Solent rig after hearing Brion Toss (the rigger) extol its virtues a couple years ago at our local sailing society meeting. I guess the difference is in beating, where the balance would be critical to maintain headway and power through the waves.

Has anyone had experience with this? As for the solent, has anyone attached it to the area around the bulkhead to the chain locker on the E38?

Finally, our boat is rigged for a storm-tri -- has the separate track -- but buying one seems a bit of a waste given the three reefs. Anyone with experience using a storm-tri?

Thanks.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Sailing in the high 30s

I once sailed my E33RH directly upwind in a steady 35 NW breeze with gusts over 40 after my engine overheated on the way out of Block Island. I used a half furled 110 jib (my smallest) and no main. The seas were 5 to 10 feet coming across 7 miles of Block Island Sound from the RI coast. The E33 is a fractional rig so that little piece of jib was pretty small. The E33RH is not a stiff boat in a breeze and nobody was sitting on the rail so this is a pretty fair comparison to any cruising situation. My crew consisted of 3 college buddies, one hung over and the other two with rudimentry sailing skills handling the jib sheets. The E33 sails extremely well and goes upwind exceptionally so keeping her under 15-18 degrees of heel made sailing upwind at 6 knots and steering around waves no problem. That said, it wouldn't have taken much more wind to overpower the boat and trying to go upwind would not have been possible. Also, once you get tired and can not actively steer it's a whole different story.
Mark
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Glad to hear that the E38 handles the snot well enough IF the reefing system is up to it. I will be moving at least the 1st reef clew line back to the cockpit, I have an open clutch right now. I never thought of the bungie trick, I had been using a small piece of line and tying the the cringle ring back through the gooseneck to keep it on the rams horn. A bungie is certainly easier so thanks for that tip!

Just curious, any E38 owners have port/stbd wing halyards? If so, where are they led? Both of mine are led to the cockpit, which makes little sense, especially since I use them for an asymmetric in a sock. Have been thinking of moving the two wing halyards to a winch and clutches on the mast. This will free up some clutches on the cabintop and also allow me to raise the spinnaker sock solo.

RT
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Jib halyards

My mast has a winch mounted on either side. The jib halyards are led there. There are no clutches up there though, just cleats. Since we roller furl the jib, it makes sense.

Both reef lines are run aft to the cockpit, as is the vang, through an old triple line stopper, rather than a clutch. Works fine, although sometimes I wish the little winch there was self-tailing.

I like the bungee idea, also. Thanks, Loren.
 

stuartm80127

Member II
E27 in high winds

Just some thoughts and different experience to share.

In 2009 our E27 was outfitted with a triple reefed main, a 130 Genoa, a 80% working jib and a 45 sq ft storm jib. NEw running/standing rigging... The goal was to have sails sufficient to handle most weather one would encounter during "good" seasons. The boom has a 4 ft 1 inch track on the aft side. I attach two Shaffer sliding block with bails(part 73-37) to the track. I have a large cleat near the middle of the boom to tie off the lines to. I pretty much ignore the first reefing point on the sail alltogether as the relief just isn't worth it. I have 3/8 line for each reef point that starts in the respective block/bail and then up through the respective clew down through the block and up to the cleat. I have two long reef hooks on the tack assembly.

To reef, I have the helmsman steer close-hulled keeping the jib full and then we ease off on the mainsheet allowing the main to luff. Ease off on the main halyard and pulling in the slack on the reefing line and then getting the reef tack around the reefing hook and then pulling up the slack in the main halyard. Then I tighten the reefing line til the clew is close to the boom and secure the line. Then I tighten the main halyard again and secure. Go back to the reef clew and then run a 3' 3/8 line twice through the reefing clew(better leverage) and around the boom and then secure with a good reef knot. This last step is critical as it prevents stress on the block and keeps the new foot of the sail from becoming free from the boom. Then I secure the respective reef points around the sail keeping things kind of loose. Then we tighten the mainsheet and off we go up to 30kt winds before we repeat the process again for the third reef.


In 2009 we tested our boat our at Dillon at 9000' feet in Colorado. Late September was incredible and we clocked north of 50kts(probably 30kts at sea-level) on a good sized lake while being double reefed and a storm jib. Reefing was much easier lacking any swell. We were ready for more.

Last July we(crew of 2) progressed to sail in some pretty challenging weather off the Channel Islands to really test out our E27 refit. Many times we had to reef to the second reef point while flying an 80% working jib. One thing I learned was that my sail gate covers had to be replaced with something sturdier or to add in a sail track for my main. Once in building winds/seas we had to reef to #2 around 20kts(I am conservative here). I was pulling in on the reef line when I realized it was tensioning the sail slides too much and actually pulled one through the sail gate. Where one went, two more quickly followed before I got control of things. I ended up getting the reef tack around the reef hook and then was able to secure the head of the sail without losing any more of the slides out of the sailgate. A logical fix for this is a Stainless sail gate or even better, a track system. Next summer.

While sailing from Santa Cruz to Santa Rosa we left in 25kt winds and I had decided to triple reef the main. We started with the working jib and when around 30kts we went to a storm jib. Our storm jib is approx 45 sq ft of heavy fabric. I never installed a forward track for it so the penalty of flying it is that we just dont point as high. We made it across to Skunk point in record time and then tacked. On the second tack the winds climbed to 40kts and the 3/16 rigging was howling. We tacked again when we had a clear shot into Belchers bay and by this time the wind was peaking at 48kts while we were doing about 4kts. The rigging was literally screaming, water and spindrift was slamming against the hull and stinging our faces. It was an electric feeling never felt before but adjusted to quickly. We were dressed properly, wet but warm (no Dodger). Despite the nastiness, the rigging was in excellent shape, the mast was in-column, the sails were looking great and the boat was handling well. I would imagine that with that set of sails up that she could have handled upwards of 55kts before I had to consider dropping them or hove to. The folks at Mack sails (pre-sale yada) were telling me that our sails could handle 60+kts but I don't think I could, at least yet. We did hove to once at about 40kts and she quieted down quite well but not enough to allow someone to sleep. This was a disconcerting feature of the E27 to me in that when hoving to, I could never seem to get the turbulence/wake of the boat between me and the oncoming seas/winds to calm the wind waves slamming on our hull. See Pardy Storm Tactics. I was always forereaching too much for that. Perhaps a storm anchor would have helped here but I leave that for others to comment on. When we did reach Belcher's we couldn't discern good from bad anchorage areas and the sand was blowing off the cliffs. So, we ended up broad reaching which with the little sail we had, we still screamed along a 7kts with surfing peaks of 9+kts though never out of control. At this point my son actually slept below quite comfortably. In all of this, I was actually very pleased with how well the boat and I handled these conditions. Two weeks later we came back for more and ended up anchoring at San Miguel having to motorsail 3/4 of the way in fickle winds before the winds finally came up to their usual 20kts in the last two hours of our trip there. A few weeks later Windy Lane at its usual 25kts just wasn't as exciting as it was the first time we crossed it at the beginning of the summer.

For 2011 my wishlist includes:

1) A dodger.
2) A mainsail track on my mast to prevent me from having to worry about that darn sailgate again.
 
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