Rudder Modification for an E38?

[Seth]

Good point

Both of those 38's certainly do have rudders of the same shape, and from my perch this week at a Trade Show in Detroit I can't say with certainty that the shoal keel boat's rudder is not as deep as the deep keel version's rudder-it just looks that way to me based on those photos, and some vague memory (a senior moment!).,

It would be easy enough to check with Foss Foam or even FincoFab (or BK for that matter).

If it IS not as deep-the combination of the shoal keel and shallow rudder would make things worse from a controllability point of view..the solution: shorten sail as needed until things are under control-and certainly there is a good sail combination for both configurations.

The deep keel and (assumed) deeper rudder will definitely make for a more controllable ride when sailing hard ddw with a lot of sail up!! Not much fun, but more controllable!

Good times, though!
Cheers from da Motor City!

S

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Very interesting idea there losing the skeg and adding it to the rudder. I wonder how tough a job that would be? Guess you could still use the original rudder and would not have to build a new one, but just how much of an improvement it would be I don't know. Seems like a big project involving glass work and gel coat...

2 weeks ago the wife, 2.5 year old, 8 week old and I took a week long cruise down the bay. We had northerly breeze of 15kts or better each day and a few days of 20kts+. We have a new main from Quantum that has the maximum roach allowed by phrf. I also have a 145% RF genoa. I dont have a pole so rarely sail wing and wing. I found that the boat performed better with just the full main sailing DDW than with the main and jib or just the jib, easier to steer and just as fast. We had a few days with big seas 6-8' (big for Chesapeake) around the lower part of the bay. As long as the breeze was better than 15 I was able to make at least 7.5kts DDW with just the main. A question I have and its better for a new thread is about techniques for gybing in heavy air. I hate the crash of just gybing the helm and letting the boom fly over, but being short handed and having a mid boom sheeting it is tough to go any other way. Thoughts?

 

[footrope]

Measurements

I printed the pictures and scaled the training edges of the two rudders (Chris Millers' and mine) and they are each about 4.2 times the distance from the top rail of their stern pulpit to the middle rail. (And ... the distance from the camera to the stern pulpit and the trailing edge of the rudder is pretty close, at the angles the pictures were taken.) The assumption I made was that the two boats have identical stern pulpits. That is a measurement we can compare without diving or pulling any boats out of the water.

As for chicken gybes, we have even used them on the race course (not my boat). One notable time was at a mark rounding, reversing course and going from a broad reach to a close reach. Kind of surprised the boat that was right behind us, whom I think had been warned because he didn't get mad at us and we were never close to a collision. I work the bow, so I don't hear the tactical conversations and we had doused the spinnaker already.

 

[Seth]

Illusions and chicken gybes

Thanks for the scientific approach to determining the sizes of the 2 rudders-and so they are the same...Still and all, this hull shape and rudder configuration is simply not the ideal setup for heavy air downwind sailing with a lot of sail. On the other hand, it IS conducive to good upwind performance (especially for a cruising boat), and overall light air performance. These are traditionally the weak points for cruisers, and a big part of what makes the E boats great. For the conditions we sail in the most, they are some of the best performing cruising boats ever built. And in the nasty stuff, just get the sail combo to the point where the boat tracks well enough-sure a light boat with a big kite, or even the Olson/Ericson 34 may surf past you in the big stuff, but if you really wanted to have a race boat that excels in thiose conditions, you would have bought something else.

Everything is a tradeoff. I DO know that the Andrews rudder WAS a tad deeper, and also the assembly was re-shaped to resemble the Olson type rudder-and good things resulted. Of course, the issue of the hull shape remained unchanged, so there was a big improvement, but the boat is still not at its' best in those conditions...

You all beat me to the tack-around/chicken gybe-but it is a safe, seaman-like maneuver, that will save you a lot of trouble.

If you do a conventional gybe, then once you get ddw, sheet the sail in as far as you can, turn the boat slightly, but keep it close to ddw. As previously mentioned, when you see the roach of the main want to come across, then ease the main out as quickly as you can, but in a controlled fashion. The trick here is in the steering. You have be 100% sure you don't inadvertently gybe back, and also that you don't head up too far on the new gybe until the sail is fully eased (or you will likely broach). Certainly takes some practice in big seas and breeze-and even if you can do this well, there comes a point when it is just safer to tack around instead. In the 93 Transpac we did this on Medicine Man(then an Andrews 56) as we came across the Molokai channel-We were flying across the channel with a kite up-averaging about 15-18 knots, we reached the layline for Diamond Head around midnight-it was blowing about 35 and the seas were ruinning about 20 feet. We had the best crew I have ever sailed with, and at the bowman's suggestion (can you blame him?) we pulled the kite down, tacked around, and re-set the kite and charged for the finish line. Needless to say, although the bowman asked for it, we ALL agreed right away that this was the right idea. We actually had to make 3 tries before we could get the boat up and around the eye of the wind without stopping in irons-the waves were so high that by the time we reached the top of one as we were sheeting in and heading up, we had run out of speed and slid backwards!!

3rd time we got it right, and off we went.

Chicken gybes ROCK!

Fair and gentle breezes,
S

 

[Richard Elliott]

E34 Rudder

Anyone interested in the internal structure of a 1989 E34 rudder? We had an unfortunate encounter with a rock in B.C.

 

[footrope]

E-34 Rudder

Richard,

So that rudder is all "there?" The shaft has come through the side of the foam/glass outer fairing material?

I want to see the rock. I'll bet it looks worse, huh?

 

[Richard Elliott]

Footloose

Only the rudder shaft was bent. It is 3" Dia. S.S. tubing. As shown, the rudder fiberglass and foam have been cut away to expose the shaft.

 

[Loren Beach]

Gybing and Rudders now Different Threads

The thread split is done. Please note the change and that the gybing material now has its own thread.
BTW, and kidding aside, the pictures of the different rudders are really helpful; it's so nice to have the capability to attach them. Thanks, Sean!



Loren
(Awkwardly donning his apprentice wizard hat as a Moderator)

 

[Lynda Radke]

Modified Rudder E38

We also had performance issues with our original rudder and replaced it with an eliptical one from Foss Foam. It was based on a design for a Cal40.

 

[Roger Ware]

Deep Keel or Wing?

Lynda, I cant quite see from the photo, but I think you have a deep keel? As others have mentioned, the rudder on a wing/shoal E38 - like mine - is the same depth as the keel, so any lengthening would create implications for nasty and expensive groundings.

Cheers, Roger Ware, Kingston, ON

 

[Lynda Radke]

Eliptical Rudder

Roger,

We do have the deep keel. Our new rudder, even though it is longer than the original rudder, is still quite a bit shorter than the keel. The keel bulbs you see in the picture were added a couple of years ago to the original deep keel.

Lynda

 

[bbboat]

E39 Original rudder vs. new designs

Does anyone have an original rudder specification (height width area etc) for an E39?

I just pulled the rudder off my '76 E39 - I'm sure that it's the original. If you like, I'll measure or trace a pattern off of it and send to you.

Both Bruce King and Martin have both told me the original rudder is on the small side for this size boat, especially by today's standards. That, plus the current condition of the original rudder (delaminated) and the apparent benefits that many on this site have said they got from a modified rudder led me to the decision to just go for the mod.

Here's a drawing that Foss Foam in CA faxed me of an E39 compared to a rudder mold for a Cal 40 that they have used in the past for the E39. Any thoughts?

 

[Loren Beach]

Yet another Ericson rudder (33)

For the sake of historical reference, here is a view of the rudder and the interesting top of the blade on a Ron Holland Ericson E-33.
Loren in PDX