Rookie Mistake! Need help/advice Threading Main Halyard (E33RH)

[sf1332]

Hello all, I used a messenger line over the winter when my boat was on the hard. When swapping out, my "quick" connection (still sewn & taped) came off, thus my main halyard came off the mast. Because my boat (E33RH) is fractionally rigged, climbing up to masthead is not an option, thus ended up hiring a "cherry picker" crane next week to go up to the top. (You can imagine how I felt: if I spent 5 more min doing a better job on connecting the lines, I would not have to spend $$$ and more energy!) Would appreciate any advice & comments (and share your stories please!):

1. To thread the main halyard, planning on using a bicycle chain tied to either messenger line or the actual halyard. Mostly concerned about making sure it will not be caught by other lines (4 other halyards in the mast below forestay) or fittings inside. Other halyards are all metal wires inside thus might not be as bad. Any thoughts?

2. The halyard exit cover opening is only about 15-20mm wide...do I really need to take this off? I am hoping to use a magnet stick to fish out the chain.

3. One saving grace is that I've been meaning to remove the running back stays (RBS) and old Lazy Jack (LJ) lines, thus this will be a good opportunity. Any thoughts on best approach? Currently, planning on leaving the fittings but just cutting wires right below the fittings.

4. When on the top of the mast, what are the other service items I can do besides visually inspecting instruments?

What are other things to consider for this project?

Thank you!

sf1332

s/v "Karma" 1982 E33RH #12
Erie & Pittsburgh, PA

 

[goldenstate]

Hello all, I used a messenger line over the winter when my boat was on the hard. When swapping out, my "quick" connection (still sewn & taped) came off, thus my main halyard came off the mast. Because my boat (E33RH) is fractionally rigged, climbing up to masthead is not an option, thus ended up hiring a "cherry picker" crane next week to go up to the top. (You can imagine how I felt: if I spent 5 more min doing a better job on connecting the lines, I would not have to spend $$$ and more energy!) Would appreciate any advice & comments (and share your stories please!):

1. To thread the main halyard, planning on using a bicycle chain tied to either messenger line or the actual halyard. Mostly concerned about making sure it will not be caught by other lines (4 other halyards in the mast below forestay) or fittings inside. Other halyards are all metal wires inside thus might not be as bad. Any thoughts?

—-> I am not sure you have much choice. It should be fine

2. The halyard exit cover opening is only about 15-20mm wide...do I really need to take this off? I am hoping to use a magnet stick to fish out the chain.

—>. If you can pull it out with the cover on, fine. It will be easier if opened up.

3. One saving grace is that I've been meaning to remove the running back stays (RBS) and old Lazy Jack (LJ) lines, thus this will be a good opportunity. Any thoughts on best approach? Currently, planning on leaving the fittings but just cutting wires right below the fittings.

You may decrease the value of the boat a little if you lop off the running stays. They are a feature of the racier Ron Holland boats. But it may not matter much as a future owner could replace them.

4. When on the top of the mast, what are the other service items I can do besides visually inspecting instruments?

Maybe bring a pair of pliers, some PB blaster and make sure your masthead sheaves (pulley wheels) are turning freely.

What are other things to consider for this project?

Are your anchor and steaming lights working? If not, perhaps use the crane as a chance to replace bulbs?

Thank you!

sf1332

s/v "Karma" 1982 E33RH #12
Erie & Pittsburgh, PA

 

[Loren Beach]

You may decrease the value of the boat a little if you lop off the running stays. They are a feature of the racier Ron Holland boats. But it may not matter much as a future owner could replace them.

Those runners are designed into the rig geometry. They are more than just a sales feature connected with racing.
Remember that the replacement price of the standing rig is often worth more than the whole insured value on any boat over 30 years old.
Aside: Choosing to be underinsured is a separate topic for another thread on a different day... !

Speaking of runners, our OEM ss wire runners were replaced with low stretch line over 15 years ago, and again last year when the standing rig was again replaced. The runner tails are still the braided lines that came with the boat, and are doing fine -- but then they spend most of their time stored because the runners are not needed in protected home waters.

 

[Kenneth K]

Here's what I used when installing a line for a spinnaker pole lift.



I visually located one of the white streamers through the mast exit plate and pulled it through the opening using a u-shaped pick. It was easier than I expected. I worried, too, about entanglement with exiting lines & wiring but the string seemed to drop straight and the end result feels like a clean run.

 

[bgary]

My process, FWIW

-- pull all the other halyards bar-tight. It helps avoid letting things twist around each other inside the mast.

-- I use a light low-stretch, brightly-colored cord with a number of small "egg" fishing weights threaded onto it at intervals. Mine has, I think, 6 small weights over a 6" span. Number and spacing aren't critical, only that it has enough weight to pull the cord down the mast, and enough flexibility to make it around sheaves.

This stuff works (yeah, mine is pink. don't judge)
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lehigh-1-16-in-x-225-ft-Pink-Twisted-Polypropylene-Rope/1000148833

-- have a person stationed at the exit point with a flashlight, and a length of coat-hanger with a hook bent in the end.

-- if available, have a number of other people stand on the rail on the side the halyard will come out. Heels the boat a little and makes it so the weighted cord slides down in the inner wall of the mast, again helping to avoid wrapping around anything.

-- "pro tip": At the masthead, before lowering the cord inside the mast, lower the cord *outside* the mast to about a foot past the exit box. And mark your cord at that point (a simple slip-knot is fine). It's a way of knowing if the weight is getting close to the exit.

When all set, feed your string-of-weights over the sheave and lower it down. Your helper should be able to hear it coming as the weights slide down the inside wall of the mast. With any luck (it happens!) the weights will magically feed out of the exit box. If not, when the masthead guy indicates (from the mark on the cord) that the weights should be down far enough, its usually a simple process to find the bright-colored cord with the flashlight and pull it out with the coat-hanger.

$.02
Bruce

 

[markvone]

Hard to tell for sure, but your halyard exit plate looks to be riveted to the mast. I WOULD NOT remove it for this exercise.
I lost a spin halyard on my masthead E36RH, don't ask. Note: you only have a brief moment to watch the halyard tail slither across the deck and climb up the mast into the exit plate BUT you have a considerable amount of time after that to watch the halyard pile up on deck before the tail jumps from the masthead onto the top of that pile. I fed the just the halyard tail back in at the masthead and a helper fished the tail out through the exit plate with a hanger n what seemed like no time. Lucky happens.

My check stays have T ball fittings at the top, when turned 90 degrees they come out of a slot in the mast, no cutting required. Yours may be different on the E33. The deck end of mine is a simple 4:1 block and tackle with a snap shackle that I leave installed with the base attached to the sidestay deck u-bolts and the check stay snagged tight. Totally out of the way until needed. There is a heavy duty padeye in each aft corner of the deck that the check stay attaches to when needed.
With your fractional rig you will have much more use for the runners than I do with a masthead.

I did ditch the lazy jacks I inherited from the PO. Most likely these were added later and all the fittings will be drilled and tapped so they all should unscrew to remove. Corrosion may be your only issue with these.

Mark

 

[David Grimm]

Hope all goes well sf2332! Some have mentioned bringing up a good lubricant for the masthead sheaves. What would be considered a good lubricant? Would Super Lube the teflon grease work well for this application? I plan on replacing my main halyard this week.

---

 

[sf1332]

Thank you all for comments and advice!

More troubles:

Yesterday, I've decided to pull and take out the messenger line that was sitting inside the mast (through the exit point). Now that's stuck and would not come out. When the line fell inside w/o tension, believe it wrapped around (or snagged) spreader fittings, or screws, etc.

You can see the messenger line (¼") in the photo below, but you'd also see a white stuff right next/behind it just inside of the exit...this is a PVC tubing containing electrical...also, there'a single gray electrical wire right next to it (not shown).

Action Plan:
1. I have a "endoscope" camera with 15' length...plan on using this to see if I can located where the line snagged. Might be the 1st spreaders.
2. I might try to get a long tube/pipe that fits over the messenger line and push it up "hoping" to loosen where it snagged.
3. If nothing works, plan on cutting the line 2' below the exit point, then putting the tail end back inside the mast clearing the exit hole. Before this, I will zip tie (or glue) the line to the PVC pipe (electrical) thus it will not freely move around inside.
4. Friday is the cherry picker crane day: if the messenger line does not block anything, I still should be able to thread the main halyard.

The above might be a good short term action plan as I plan on taking the mast down end of the season (Sept here), work on the mast, and replace the standing rigging.

 

[sf1332]

—-> I am not sure you have much choice. It should be fine

2. The halyard exit cover opening is only about 15-20mm wide...do I really need to take this off? I am hoping to use a magnet stick to fish out the chain.

—>. If you can pull it out with the cover on, fine. It will be easier if opened up.


You may decrease the value of the boat a little if you lop off the running stays. They are a feature of the racier Ron Holland boats. But it may not matter much as a future owner could replace them.


Maybe bring a pair of pliers, some PB blaster and make sure your masthead sheaves (pulley wheels) are turning freely.


Are your anchor and steaming lights working? If not, perhaps use the crane as a chance to replace bulbs?

Those runners are designed into the rig geometry. They are more than just a sales feature connected with racing.
Remember that the replacement price of the standing rig is often worth more than the whole insured value on any boat over 30 years old.
Aside: Choosing to be underinsured is a separate topic for another thread on a different day... !

Speaking of runners, our OEM ss wire runners were replaced with low stretch line over 15 years ago, and again last year when the standing rig was again replaced. The runner tails are still the braided lines that came with the boat, and are doing fine -- but then they spend most of their time stored because the runners are not needed in protected home waters

Those runners are designed into the rig geometry. They are more than just a sales feature connected with racing.
Remember that the replacement price of the standing rig is often worth more than the whole insured value on any boat over 30 years old.
Aside: Choosing to be underinsured is a separate topic for another thread on a different day... !

Speaking of runners, our OEM ss wire runners were replaced with low stretch line over 15 years ago, and again last year when the standing rig was again replaced. The runner tails are still the braided lines that came with the boat, and are doing fine -- but then they spend most of their time stored because the runners are not needed in protected home waters.

I've talked to 2 other E33RH owners, and they said they never use runners, or needed them (as previous owners took them off). In offshore situations with a (very) long stretch of sailing on one tack, I can see the value in them, but not for me. Thanks for your reply!

 

[sf1332]

My process, FWIW

-- pull all the other halyards bar-tight. It helps avoid letting things twist around each other inside the mast.

-- I use a light low-stretch, brightly-colored cord with a number of small "egg" fishing weights threaded onto it at intervals. Mine has, I think, 6 small weights over a 6" span. Number and spacing aren't critical, only that it has enough weight to pull the cord down the mast, and enough flexibility to make it around sheaves.

This stuff works (yeah, mine is pink. don't judge)
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lehigh-1-16-in-x-225-ft-Pink-Twisted-Polypropylene-Rope/1000148833

-- have a person stationed at the exit point with a flashlight, and a length of coat-hanger with a hook bent in the end.

-- if available, have a number of other people stand on the rail on the side the halyard will come out. Heels the boat a little and makes it so the weighted cord slides down in the inner wall of the mast, again helping to avoid wrapping around anything.

-- "pro tip": At the masthead, before lowering the cord inside the mast, lower the cord *outside* the mast to about a foot past the exit box. And mark your cord at that point (a simple slip-knot is fine). It's a way of knowing if the weight is getting close to the exit.

When all set, feed your string-of-weights over the sheave and lower it down. Your helper should be able to hear it coming as the weights slide down the inside wall of the mast. With any luck (it happens!) the weights will magically feed out of the exit box. If not, when the masthead guy indicates (from the mark on the cord) that the weights should be down far enough, its usually a simple process to find the bright-colored cord with the flashlight and pull it out with the coat-hanger.

$.02
Bruce

I am still trying to decide between what you're suggesting (using a light trace line + small weight like washers) vs. using the actual main halyard (⅜" or 5/16" I believe) with a heavier bicycle chain or a combo of both (trace line + chain).

Given my new dilemma above (messenger line got stuck inside mast), leaning toward using the halyard + chain. Hoping this "heavy" method will have less chance of getting snagged/stopped perhaps by the same place where my messenger line is snagged.

Thank you for your advice!

 

[goldenstate]

Hope all goes well sf2332! Some have mentioned bringing up a good lubricant for the masthead sheaves. What would be considered a good lubricant? Would Super Lube the teflon grease work well for this application? I plan on replacing my main halyard this week.

---

I suggested PB blaster in case the sheaves were locked up. It isn’t a lubricant as much as a corrosion-fighter.

I found cast aluminum sheaves riding on a stainless axle on my masthead. When I had the mast down, I ensured that all were rotating and I don’t worry too much about regular lubrication besides rainwater washing and actually using my spin halyard occasionally so that it does not freeze.

 

[sf1332]

Hello, wanted to share with you some photos I took. My "endoscope camera" quality is poor and I could not take photos beyond the 1st spreaders, which is about 6-7' above the main halyard exit plate on the Stbd side (where the camera enters). My camera cable is 15', thus will try one more time to go beyond the 1st spreaders. Perhaps should expected, but little surprised to find sharp corroded screws, and wires inside the mast. Notes:
1. Surprised to find sharp corroded screw(s) and wires inside easily snagging lines
2. Looks like there are 2 abandoned lines inside (dark red and green) (they don't look like halyard lines which are white).
3. Identified 4 out of 5 halyards (messenger line for Main, Top Lift, Spin Stbd Side, Jib Port Side) but could not located Port Spin Halyard.

 

[Loren Beach]

If it were me, which it isn't, I would do what we did last year and lay the spar down and install all new pvc tubing for wiring. And also clean up anything sharp. We did replace the old and disconnected (due to failed rivets) single pvc tube with two new ones, one to the steaming light location and the other to the mast head. Replaced all wiring, 12 volt and coax. New standing rig.
Good time to replace the top sheaves, and we did so. Everything works like on a new boat, from the deck upwards.
As someone once pointed out here, only the skipper keeps getting older...

 

[bgary]

I've talked to 2 other E33RH owners, and they said they never use runners, or needed them (as previous owners took them off). In offshore situations with a (very) long stretch of sailing on one tack, I can see the value in them, but not for me. Thanks for your reply!

I'd recommend *not* removing them. As others have said, you can stow them at the mast, out of the way, until you want to use them.

And, IMHO, you will want to use them. It's not about being offshore on a long tack. It's about being able to support the mast against the load of the headstay. With the runners you can protect the mast from pumping and keep the headstay from sagging. Without the runners, you lose a component the rig is designed to use.

 

[goldenstate]

You lost a halyard. I would just put the halyard back and not obsess over these other issues unduly until you have the mast out of the boat.

 

[bgary]

One thing you *might* try, if you feel like being adventurous while you're at the masthead....

.... lower your new messenger-line (or halyard, if you prefer) down to the exit port, and then attach the end of the new messenger to the bitter end of the *old* messenger. See if you can get the old messenger up and out through the masthead.

If not, you're no worse off that you are now. But even if the new messenger is caught in such a way that it can't be pulled down, there is a chance pulling it from above would clear it off whatever it is hung up on.

$.02

 

[sf1332]

One thing you *might* try, if you feel like being adventurous while you're at the masthead....

.... lower your new messenger-line (or halyard, if you prefer) down to the exit port, and then attach the end of the new messenger to the bitter end of the *old* messenger. See if you can get the old messenger up and out through the masthead.

If not, you're no worse off that you are now. But even if the new messenger is caught in such a way that it can't be pulled down, there is a chance pulling it from above would clear it off whatever it is hung up on.

$.02

Brilliant Idea! Will think about it more. My quick concern is that there's some probability that the new messenger line might go down a different "channel" than the "old" (currently stuck) one, and I am concerned that will possibly make it worse as I try to free up the old line. Might still try.

 

[bgary]

there's some probability that the new messenger line might go down a different "channel" than the "old" (currently stuck) one,

Yup, I thought about that too.

One possible option is - rather than connecting your new halyard (or messenger) to the old messenger, put a small ring or shackle (small enough to fit through the exit box) around the old messenger. Connect the ring to the new messenger, and tie another small line to it as well. When ready, pull on the new messenger (or halyard) and the ring should ride up the old messenger. Best case, it rides up far enough to free the old messenger from whatever it's caught on, and you'll be able to pull it out of the mast. Worst case, you can retrieve the ring (and new messenger) using the small line.

Probably best to use small line for both sides of the ring, so as to avoid adding too much bulk to the package riding up and down the old messenger...

 

[sf1332]

Yup, I thought about that too.

One possible option is - rather than connecting your new halyard (or messenger) to the old messenger, put a small ring or shackle (small enough to fit through the exit box) around the old messenger. Connect the ring to the new messenger, and tie another small line to it as well. When ready, pull on the new messenger (or halyard) and the ring should ride up the old messenger. Best case, it rides up far enough to free the old messenger from whatever it's caught on, and you'll be able to pull it out of the mast. Worst case, you can retrieve the ring (and new messenger) using the small line.

Probably best to use small line for both sides of the ring, so as to avoid adding too much bulk to the package riding up and down the old messenger...

View attachment 43085

Even more brilliant!

Yes, I did think about having a trailer line (retrieval line), but didn't come up with having a ring idea...this could be a small cotter ring.

Thank you very much!

 

[Ralph Hewitt]

Thank you all for comments and advice!

More troubles:

Yesterday, I've decided to pull and take out the messenger line that was sitting inside the mast (through the exit point). Now that's stuck and would not come out. When the line fell inside w/o tension, believe it wrapped around (or snagged) spreader fittings, or screws, etc.

You can see the messenger line (¼") in the photo below, but you'd also see a white stuff right next/behind it just inside of the exit...this is a PVC tubing containing electrical...also, there'a single gray electrical wire right next to it (not shown).

Action Plan:
1. I have a "endoscope" camera with 15' length...plan on using this to see if I can located where the line snagged. Might be the 1st spreaders.
2. I might try to get a long tube/pipe that fits over the messenger line and push it up "hoping" to loosen where it snagged.
3. If nothing works, plan on cutting the line 2' below the exit point, then putting the tail end back inside the mast clearing the exit hole. Before this, I will zip tie (or glue) the line to the PVC pipe (electrical) thus it will not freely move around inside.
4. Friday is the cherry picker crane day: if the messenger line does not block anything, I still should be able to thread the main halyard.

The above might be a good short term action plan as I plan on taking the mast down end of the season (Sept here), work on the mast, and replace the standing rigging.

Need input... your halyard exit hole (as shown) is low one or top one?
Thanks