Reverse Polarity Challenge

tadslc

Member III
The last couple of times I've been to the boat I've experienced an odd problem that's got me a little perplexed.

On shore power, running the A/C, the reverse polarity light comes on shutting down 110v power to the boat. I can turn the master breaker off, then back on and it could work again for 10 minutes, 2 hrs or 24 hrs before tripping again. The last thing I did to the 110v system was install a new raw water pump for the A/C.

I've had the outlet checked at the dock and on the master panel and those seem to be OK. I haven't heard of anyone else on the dock is experiencing this problem either.

Weak breaker?

Anyone experience something similar?


Thanks
 

dave_g

Member II
Reverse Polarity Lamp

The reverse polarity lamp sits between the AC neutral and the safety ground. It lights up when the AC neutral is not at the same voltage as the safety ground. This condition can be caused by high current flowing in the neutral ( due to the larger A/C load) and the neutral line (back to the dock) having too high resistance. The current flowing through the higher resistance will cause a voltage drop in the AC neutral and thus a voltage difference between the AC neutral and the Safety ground (which should have no current flowing). The higher resistance could be caused by a poor connection somewhere along the way, or by an under sized AC neutral conductor.

I'm not sure why the main breaker is tripping, unless the main is a GFCI breaker. If the main is a GFCI, the current flowing through the reverse polarity lamp to the safety ground causes an imbalance in current between the AC Hot and Neutral which is just enough to trip the GFCI breaker.

Dave
 

Ed Valente

Member II
Reverse Polarity Problem

Had the identical problem on my 911 Se. Tracked it down to a faulty GFI. Simple replacement corrected the issue.
I'd start there. Good luck.

Ed.
 

Flight Risk

Member II
My GFCI above the electrical panel would trip randomly.... Messed around and found the shore power connections on my E34 at the inlet receptacle were crummy due to age and salt water. I could have stripped back the wire and cleaned it up. Decided after 21 years I could spring for a new shore power inlet receptacle...... Cured the issue. I also replaced the GFCI receptacle for good measure the following week and checked all the other AC receptacles for wear and tear.


Silly me, doing preventive maintenance........... :egrin:
 

tadslc

Member III
I'm not sure why the main breaker is tripping, unless the main is a GFCI breaker. If the main is a GFCI, the current flowing through the reverse polarity lamp to the safety ground causes an imbalance in current between the AC Hot and Neutral which is just enough to trip the GFCI breaker.

I had someone at my marina mention that he had a weak GFCI breaker and it ended up being the cause of his reverse polarity problem.

This goes against what Stu refers to and I don't know enough about AC to agree or disagree but I might just try to replace this breaker and see what happens.


Thanks,
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
I had someone at my marina mention that he had a weak GFCI breaker and it ended up being the cause of his reverse polarity problem.

This goes against what Stu refers to and I don't know enough about AC to agree or disagree but I might just try to replace this breaker and see what happens.

Your guy at the marina is just plain wrong. I wouldn't ask that guy for any electrical help.

They are two separate things which may, just may, result in a tripped breaker.

Here's what Don Casey says about GFCI, which protects you when you're grounded or there is a fault to ground. It comes from this link: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/36.htm

Reverse polarity is when the hot and neutral are incorrectly wired backwards.

AC has three wires: hot, neutral & ground. Many folks "fear" AC and thus don't bother learning about it. Reading about it from Don Casey or just buying Calder's Boatowners Manual will tell you all you need to know. If you're running a boat with AC it's just as important to know about than it is to know about filters and engines and sheets and blocks and tackles and sailing.

It's really not that hard.

*************************

[FONT=arial,hevetica][FONT=arial,hevetica]Ground Fault Interrupt
Regular circuit breakers are essentially fire-protection devices and offer no protection against electrical shock. A ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI), on the other hand, provides a high degree of shock protection. If you accidentally touch an energized wire or component and you are grounded, the GFCI disconnects the circuit in about 1/40 of a second, too little time for the current to build to a dangerous level.
[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,hevetica]
In recognition of the increased risk of shock in damp environments, many municipal building codes mandate GFCIs in bathrooms and, increasingly, kitchens. Boats are damp environments, and every outlet on a boat should be protected by a GFCI.
[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,hevetica]GFCIs are inexpensive and easy to install. Simply replace the first outlet on a circuit (counting from the breaker) with a GFCI fixture, and all the outlets on that circuit will be protected. Make sure the terminals marked LINE are connected to the wires leading back to the breaker and those marked LOAD feed the remainder of the circuit. After you install a GFCI fixture, always test it.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
 
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dave_g

Member II
In a properly operating AC circuit, all the current flowing in the "Hot" conductor will return via the "Neutral" conductor, and none through the safety ground or any other ground path (such as a bronze thru hull touching the sea). Current flowing through any path, other than the Hot and Neutral, is a potential shock hazard. Both the Hot and Neutral conductors pass through a GFCI breaker. If the GFCI breaker detects a difference between the currents in the two conductors, the breaker is tripped. The difference in current must be flowing through some other path, posibbly the safety ground or maybe a direct short to another ground path, either way, this is a hazard.

The reverse polarity indicator verifies that the AC neutral conductor is not connected to the AC Hot source by monitoring the voltage difference between the AC neutral and the safety ground. It is not connected to the AC Hot conductor and does not monitor the Hot conductor.

Blue Seas also has a good like : http://bluesea.com/viewresource/90

I am a Registered Professional Electrical Engineer in Mass.
Dave
 

dave_g

Member II
All GFCI devices have a "test" button, which should trip the breaker when pressed. Like you, I am always skeptical about a breaker testing itself. I recommend purchasing a GFCI outlet tester (Home Depot or Lowes) for less than $10.00. You plug it into a "protected outlet" and it will indicate if the polarity is correct, and has a GFCI test button. It actually provides more info than a simple reverse polarity indicator and I strongly recommend using it after any changes are made to your shore power circuits.
 

jreddington

Member III
Here's one possibility that would account for both the reverse polarity indicator on and main tripping.

As Dave mentioned, the light simply is connected between nertral and ground (ABYC speak, the grounding and the grounded conductors). Normally, no voltage between the two. Flip the inlet and the neutral (grounding) the neutral (grounded) now has 120 V and the ground (grounded) line still has 0. You have 120 volts across the light.

As mentioned, the light can also come on due to high resistance in the neutral (grounded). If the high resistance is actually at the main breaker screw terminals, the heat from this resistance can pop the main breaker. Had a friend with a similar problem at home with the A/C intermittantly tripping its breaker in the panel. Sure enough, when I checked, the screw terminal was loose. Tightened it up, not resistance heating, no nuisance tripping.

Another hint is if when the reverse polarity light comes on is it bright or dim? If bright, it's true reverse polarity. If dim, might be high resistance in the neutral (grounded).
 

tadslc

Member III
Another hint is if when the reverse polarity light comes on is it bright or dim? If bright, it's true reverse polarity. If dim, might be high resistance in the neutral (grounded).

I would consider the reverse polarity light on the dim side.


What a great debate we have going. As usual, ask 100 people, especially sailors, a question, and you might just get 100 answers:nerd:. No but seriously, this discussion is very helpful.

AC has been a weakness of mine but after reading and re-reading Calders Boatowners manual over the past few weeks I'm getting better.


Thanks!
 

Maine Sail

Member III
Actual reverse polarity can exist either on the dock or on-board your own vessel. It does not matter where the reversing point is, on the dock or on-board, both scenarios will energize the reverse polarity indicator and create a potential for shock hazard.

With a faint RPI light you don't likely have a real reverse polarity situation but still could so check with a tester first. It is much more likely to be a voltage drop / resistance issue if the dock and polarity test well.. However if an older neon type light is used then it may just be weak and you could still have a reverse polarity situation. Reverse polarity testers are very inexpensive at Home Depot or Lowes.

The ABYC requirement for reverse polarity indicating lights is that they use minimum 25k Ohm Resistor. This is so they "indicate" at below the 5mA that a standard US spec GFCI will trip at. In the old days the indicator lights were neon based and for the last 20 or so years they have been LED but all should have a 25k Ohm resistor in the circuit.. This light sits between the AC white/neutral and AC green/earth ground and responds to a reversal of the ungrounded (black) and the grounded (white) conductors .

Keep in mind that when Muffy and Skippy fire up the brand new Sea Ray, untie the dock lines, and steam away from the dock forgetting about the power cord, it is usually Darrel the dock boy and his other buddy Darrel who re-wire the dock post. Don't trust them and start with a test of the dock post for reverse polarity. If you don't have a tester ask the marina to test it for you and be there to watch it..

It is possible for the reverse polarity indicator circuit to faintly illuminate even though the circuit is properly wired. This most often occurs from voltage drop but some inverters and even some battery chargers have been known to cause this as well. To test this you can simply disconnect your inverter or charger and see if the RPI is still faintly lit.

Thanks to a guy name Ohm, and his law, voltage is always consumed trying to push amperage through a wire. If the voltage differs between the beginning and end of the run or any two points in-between this is called voltage drop. Voltage drop can be caused by undersized wiring, improper or poor connections / terminations or corrosion. Bad or loose friction fits in shore power receptacles can also cause some VD or resistance. This difference is what can dimly illuminate a RP indicator light.

If you flip on a high amp draw load there can often be enough voltage drop along the neutral path to overcome the resistance in the 25,000 Ohm resistor thus lighting it faintly. Voltage drop is not as dangerous as sucking on live wires, but should be attended to if discovered.. Check all connections, use a tester, and make sure your AC input wiring from the dock to the panel are sufficiently sized for your loads. In some cases just trying a different dock pole and shore power cord can eliminate issues on-board and isolate them to the cord or dock post..


ABYC E11 - SHORE POWER POLARITY DEVICES

E-8.10.1 Reverse polarity indicating devices providing a continuous visible or audible signal shall be installed in 120 V AC shore power systems and must respond to the reversal of the ungrounded (black) and the grounded (white) conductors (See E-8.23.1, Diagram 3,)

E-8.10.1.1 the polarity of the system must be maintained for the proper operation of the electrical devices in the system,

E-8.10.1.2 a branch circuit is provided with overcurrent protection in only the ungrounded (black) current-carrying conductors per ABYC E-8.11.6.1

E-8.10.2 Reverse polarity indicating devices are not required in systems employing polarization or isolation transformers that establish the polarity on the boat.

E-8.10.3 The total impedance of polarity indicating and protection devices connected between normal current carrying conductors (grounded [white] conductor and ungrounded [black] conductor) and the grounding conductor shall not be less than 25,000 ohms at 120 volts, 60 hertz at all times.

 
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jreddington

Member III
Keep in mind that when Muffy and Skippy fire up the brand new Sea Ray, untie the dock lines, and steam away from the dock forgetting about the power cord, it is usually Darrel the dock boy and his other buddy Darrel who re-wire the dock post.

[/B]

Are we in the same yard? Or does our yard employ their cousins Daryl "White wire, black wire, it's all the same", and his brother Daryl "Huh?")? I know Muffy and Skippy have stopped by as transients.

Remember that these two are also the ones that probably drop the dock sections in the water in the spring and wire the pedestals (Can you say "Open Neutral"?).
 
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Maine Sail

Member III
Are we in the same yard? Or does our yard employ their cousins Daryl "White wire, black wire, it's all the same", and his brother Daryl "Huh?")? I know Muffy and Skippy have stopped by as transients.

Remember that these two are also the ones that probably drop the dock sections in the water in the spring and wire the pedestals (Can you say "Open Neutral"?).

I find that reverse polarity issues are rarely on-board the vessel unless as DIY has dug in there without a good grasp. What you do find on-board are most often resistance/VD or bleeding issues from chargers or inverters that faintly light the RPI or cause it to flicker...

Buffy and Skippy are merely part of the equation Darryl & Darryl are usually the other half...:egrin:
 

tadslc

Member III
Conclusion? - From the responses I've read, my guess would be I probably don't have a reverse polarity problem, I have a load problem with the A/C unit.

I'll be at my boat this weekend and do some more research concerning this problem.


Thanks to all.
 
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