removing Seacocks on E27

[agraziano23]

I need to change the seacocks with newer style ball type on my 1976 E27. I was wondering what kind of force I can inflict the old seacock before doing any damage to the thru-hull. The ones under the sink (engine water and sink discharge) are the worse looking, and naturally have the worse access. How thick is the hull? I read conflicting reports about the composition of the hull below water line from being solid glass to cored glass.
thanks a bunch.

 

[Loren Beach]

Hull on a 27 is solid layup. If you have ancient gate valves they are years/decades overdue for replacement. (They probably affect the boat's insurability.)
What you refer to a "sea cock" sounds like a valve screwed onto a thru hull fitting. A true sea cock normally refers to a valve on a flange that is held flat against the backing plate, in my experience.

I have found that getting the old nut off a thru hull can require someone on the outside to hold a piece of flat bar inside the casting to wedge against the molded-in ribs that are there just for that purpose. It's not uncommon for swearing to be involved in this process.

Lots of great past threads on this site about valve replacement types and materials. Try searching on thru hull, for instance. Or, try sea cock, valve, and other similar words.
Here is one pretty good thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=6209&referrerid=28

Best,
LB

 

[Glyn Judson]

Replacing gate valves with seacocks.

Dear friend, I'm going to assume that the valves currently in your boat are ball valves screwed onto through hull fittings and that your plan is to replace them with ball valves. Might I suggest that you consider doing away with everything there now so as to start from scratch the right way. YOu see, Ericson cut corners on many of our boats back then coupling tapered pipe threads in ball valves with the straight threads of the through hull fittings, hence the nut on the through hull fitting. At best one can count on no more than 1 1/2 to 2 threads engagement when threading these incompatible thread types. Today there are two approaches one can take toward a remedy. Buy all new through hull fittings and fit proper seacocks for them or buy the same through hull fittings and the all new Groco IBVF flanged adaptors http://www.groco.net/ (page 9) compatible with the straight threads of the through hull fitting but with tapered male pipe threads on the top that you can attach ball valves to. Let's take a moment to clarify something here, seacocks have ball valves too just like the ball valves you speak of. The difference is that a seacock has straight female threads on the bottom and tapered female threads on the top. Regular ball valves have tapered female pipe threads on both ends, thus the incompatibility issue when trying to mate them to straight threads. By the way this is a very dangerous proposition when/if a ball valve takes a side blow from tossed objects that impact the valves, etc. The result can be the entire valve assembly snapping off and imagine the rest. For peace of mind and the safety of you, your family and friends, start all over and do it the right way. Best of luck, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[agraziano23]

What I have now is thru-hulls with gated valves which I believe are original. I would like to retain the thru-hulls (at least for now) and just change the valves. I read literature about valves and seacocks the difference being a flange at the bottom of the "seacocks" that I believe does away with the thru-hull retaining nut. I'm in no position to change the thru-hulls (yet). A member suggested I scratch the thru-hull pain to see if it has become "pinkish" a clear sign that the Thru-hulls are compromised. I inspected the ones in the head which are easily accessed and seem in good condition, so much so that I'm contemplating leaving them for another year. The ones for the engine and sink are another story.
I confess that I'm a bit confused about the different types of threading, but I think what I get from the previous post is that the thru-hull is only held in place by 2 or 3 threads of the locking nut, correct? Could I simply remove the nut and install a sea-cock with proper flange on the existing thru-hull?

 

[Glyn Judson]

To replace or not to replace.

Dear friend, On the face of it, all this talk of straight vs. tapered can be a bit confusing but read my post again while looking at photos of the parts in a West Marine catalog and all will become clear. The threads I spoke of are the ones inside the ball valve when turning it onto your existing through hull fitting, not the threads under the large, existing nut. Do reconsider replacing the entire installation now as opposed to half today and half a year from now given the relative ease and simplicity of doing the whole job after removing the large nut. By the way, in most cases, getting the nut off will result in destroying the existing through hull fitting anyhow. Consult a West Marine Catalog by searching for "mushroom through hull" and you'll see that they sell for $13.99, probably less expensive at your own local, privately owned chandlery. When you get down to it, it's chump change and a matter of knocking out the old fitting, quickly cutting and sealing new pads before the fact and installing the new ones. It should be noted that the pinkish color usually shows up after removing the fitting from the boat in the area between it and the edge of the fiberglass hole and up into the area covered by the nut. Hope this added info helps you make up your mind, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[agraziano23]

Glyn, I reread your post after looking at the catalog you attached, I see how it all fits after seeing the pictures. I'll visit the local west marine to see all the hardware in person. Next question is: Bronze or Plastic (marelon) there is a thread in here: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_thruhulls that has pretty good write up.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Bronze or Maralon

Dear friend, My preference is for bronze. Let's see if others will chime in with their thoughts. By the way, in the case of either the old mushrooms or new ones, you'll probably need to cut them down in length to prevent them from bottoming out in the seacock before it's seated on the new pads. Hint: Thread the nut onto the fitting before cutting and filing off the edges, then back the nut off to chase any bent threads. Of course, all this pretty much requires removing the old mushroom from the boat anyhow to cut it down and here's where it gets near crazy to reuse them. The seacocks will need to be lag screwed or through bolted (bronze lag screws are my preference) to or through the backing block/hull. Revisit http://www.groco.net/ and click on Service Manual in the left column, click on the Valves & Seacocks image and the Tech Bulletin, Figure #1. Look carefully and you'll see both the through bolting and the screwing into the backing block method. Regards, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Glyn Judson]

Replacing seacocks on your E27.

Dear friend, Your question regarding seacock replacement coincides with what's currently being done by Tim Lackey. Tim's a genius and one-man restoration team located in Maine currently working on Circe, a 1969 Triton. Go to this project link http://www.lackeysailing.com/circe/circe.html and then start on 11/4/09 in the date listings to see an example of how through hull fittings have to be cut to length and how they, along with the pads and seacock flanges are fitted. Be sure to look at the subsequent date progression shots and description. Please note that he's chosen to through bolt the flanges as previously discussed and illustrated in the link to the Groco drawing. Remember that you can save drilling through the hull by using bronze lag screws driven into plywood pads. Note though that the pads must be thoroughly saturated with an epoxy barrier first including the center hole. West System #105 is typically used for this. It's important to bed the lag screws into the plywood at the time of installation. Should you choose to use material such as what Tim always uses, it's referred to as G-10, laminated Fiberglas sheet available many places, one of which is McMaster-Carr. Here's a link to that material http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-g-10-garolite-sheets/=4eyo0c. Hope this helps, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Emerald]

[snip] I would like to retain the thru-hulls (at least for now) and just change the valves. [snip]

I would highly recommend replacing the thru-hulls as well. Many years ago on my first "big" boat, a '66 Columbia 24, I replaced the old gate valves with new ball valves. I had not yet seen the light on full flanged seacocks and new thru-hulls. I was about to. It was late the night before launching. I didn't feel like making the contortions to reach the drain line on the galley sink. I was thinking I would just finish it off the next morning after launching. Luckily, I decided I'd just finish it off then, and when I went to wiggle the drain line on to the nipple on the ball valve, the whole thru-hull snapped off right above where it came through the hull, which is below the ball valve. If I had waited until the next morning after launch, I would have been looking at a gushing hole of water. So, replace those thru-hulls and do a full flanged seacock that mounts flush up to the pad/hull so you can't have something break off and sink the boat. You might find you have 1/2" thru-hulls on things like sink drains or head intake. For those, just enlarge the holes and upgrade to 3/4". Check out www.hamiltonmarine.com for good prices and selection on seacocks, thru-hulls etc.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Enlarging through hull fitting holes the easy way.

Dear friend and others, When first faced with having to enlarge a hole in the hull of our boat, going from a 1/2" through hull fitting to 3/4" as David described, memories flooded my brain of what I'd read about wooden plugs hammered into the empty hole and centering the pilot drill in the sawed-off wood plug, etc. Given that the hole in question, the raw water intake for the engine, wasn't in any critical location I simply cradled the hole saw in the bottom half of the existing hole with the drill tipped such as to start the cut in the bottom 50% only and quickly as the saw cut in, I straightened the drill until it was parallel with the outside of the hull, completing the enlargement. The result was a new hole mere fractions of an inch higher than the original. Dare I say that the whole thing took 60 seconds to complete? I doubt even that. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA