Jim Payton
Inactive Member
removed mine
I had a radar antanea (sp?) that was mounted on top of the starboard spreader and the cable came down the outside of the mast and was fed through one of the vents and into the cabin. It was cut and dangling above the sink when I purchased the boat. I have an E26. Never had a screen so I have no idea of where the rest of the unit was mounted.
I thought about replacing it but when I found out how much trouble you could get into with the Coast Guard if you didn't know how to properly use it and didn't keep proper records if you were ever involved in any kind of incident.
I don't do much offshore cruising so I rarely if ever get caught in low visibility. Mostly I do day sails but occassionaly overnight somewhere, so it hasn't been a big priority for me.
Jim of the Doldrums
I had a radar antanea (sp?) that was mounted on top of the starboard spreader and the cable came down the outside of the mast and was fed through one of the vents and into the cabin. It was cut and dangling above the sink when I purchased the boat. I have an E26. Never had a screen so I have no idea of where the rest of the unit was mounted.
I thought about replacing it but when I found out how much trouble you could get into with the Coast Guard if you didn't know how to properly use it and didn't keep proper records if you were ever involved in any kind of incident.
I don't do much offshore cruising so I rarely if ever get caught in low visibility. Mostly I do day sails but occassionaly overnight somewhere, so it hasn't been a big priority for me.
Jim of the Doldrums
Here it is, on a pole...
http://www.rosecityyachtclub.org/photos/lazydays.jpg
Here is a link to a photo off our boat with its stern pole. It is the boat on the left, rafted to the E-33.
I like the stern pole for ease of access. Mast mounts seem prone to fouling sails and lines, and then there is the routing of that fat cable...
Best,
Loren
Olson 34 #8
http://www.rosecityyachtclub.org/photos/lazydays.jpg
Here is a link to a photo off our boat with its stern pole. It is the boat on the left, rafted to the E-33.
I like the stern pole for ease of access. Mast mounts seem prone to fouling sails and lines, and then there is the routing of that fat cable...
Best,
Loren
Olson 34 #8
Jim Payton
Inactive Member
The way I understand it, after taking a navigation class from the local Coast Guard Auxilary, if you have a Radar on board you must be able to properly use it and keep a proper log. From what I have heard (I have never actually looked up any law), it is the only piece of electronic equipment on board that you can be held responsible for legally. What ever that means. I think it has to do with the fact that it sends out a signal that can be picked up by other vessels. Although I really don't know. Come to think of it, an EPIRB sends out a signal and if you deploy one accidently you can get chewed out pretty good.
I just try to avoid sailing under any circumstance where I may need it. I have a couple of pretty loud air horns on board and a good gps and good loran both of which have all the important navaids logged in, so if I do get caught I can usually manage to make it back to Chula Vista Marina.
Jim of the Doldrums
I just try to avoid sailing under any circumstance where I may need it. I have a couple of pretty loud air horns on board and a good gps and good loran both of which have all the important navaids logged in, so if I do get caught I can usually manage to make it back to Chula Vista Marina.
Jim of the Doldrums
Jim Payton
Inactive Member
P.S.
I agree with Loren. If I were going to install a radar I would mount it on the stern. It seems more practicle.
I decided about a year ago that if I were going to do some serious crusing I would buy a bigger and newer boat. At least 30 feet. In that case I would definitely buy a radar. Some of the newer models have some really cool features, but for my little boat which is just right for running around San Diego bay, Mission Bay, Coronado Islands, and Catalina Islands, Doldrums serves me well.
Jim
I agree with Loren. If I were going to install a radar I would mount it on the stern. It seems more practicle.
I decided about a year ago that if I were going to do some serious crusing I would buy a bigger and newer boat. At least 30 feet. In that case I would definitely buy a radar. Some of the newer models have some really cool features, but for my little boat which is just right for running around San Diego bay, Mission Bay, Coronado Islands, and Catalina Islands, Doldrums serves me well.
Jim
CG Aux.
For what it is worth, most of the CG auxiliary people I have seen are the least experienced and most self-impressed folks I have come across in boating. Most are powerboaters with little or no understanding of the issues sailors face.
They have no real authority, and I would question ANY regulations they come up with.
You may have found an exception (obviously there are some), but I would take anything I hear from them with a BIG grain of salt.
For what it is worth, most of the CG auxiliary people I have seen are the least experienced and most self-impressed folks I have come across in boating. Most are powerboaters with little or no understanding of the issues sailors face.
They have no real authority, and I would question ANY regulations they come up with.
You may have found an exception (obviously there are some), but I would take anything I hear from them with a BIG grain of salt.
Geoff Johnson
Fellow Ericson Owner
Liability is an interesting point. As I recall, Nigel Calder states in his cruising book that CG regs require that if you have radar, it must be on at all times (even in clear weather) and that failure to use it can be used against you if there is an accident.
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
Photo 1 of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Attachments
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radar1.jpg
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
Photo2 of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Attachments
-
radar2.jpg
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
Photo 3 of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Attachments
-
radar3.jpg
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
Photo 4 of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Photos of Radar on 1973 E-27
Attachments
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radar4.jpg
Jim Payton
Inactive Member
I failed to mention
My son who is partners with me in ownership of Doldrums was a Leutenant in the United States Coast Gaurd and a graduate of the U.S. Coast Gaurd Academy and worked in law enforcement, and he agrees with both Nigel and Geoff. Although I still have never looked at the law book to see exactly what it says.
Jim of Doldrums
And here is another P.S.
My son specialized in drug intervention not maritime law. In fact he has in his official military records and he was awarded a medal for having the largest single maritime drug bust in history.
(Just a really proud dad)
My son who is partners with me in ownership of Doldrums was a Leutenant in the United States Coast Gaurd and a graduate of the U.S. Coast Gaurd Academy and worked in law enforcement, and he agrees with both Nigel and Geoff. Although I still have never looked at the law book to see exactly what it says.
Jim of Doldrums
And here is another P.S.
My son specialized in drug intervention not maritime law. In fact he has in his official military records and he was awarded a medal for having the largest single maritime drug bust in history.
(Just a really proud dad)
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
I don't know about the CG regulations your talking about but I am just glad I installed it.
I was caught in heavy fog twice while returning from the Channel Islands in the late summer. I used to have a boat in Oxnard/Channel Islands harbor. I now am located in San Pedro, which is the second largest sea port in the world. Lots of big ships in the channel between Catalina / Channel Islands and the main land. I have only used it once when I really needed it. I was coming to moorage at the west end of Catalina in heavy fog at night. The fog rolled in about half way across the channel. It was a great comfort.
Jeff
I was caught in heavy fog twice while returning from the Channel Islands in the late summer. I used to have a boat in Oxnard/Channel Islands harbor. I now am located in San Pedro, which is the second largest sea port in the world. Lots of big ships in the channel between Catalina / Channel Islands and the main land. I have only used it once when I really needed it. I was coming to moorage at the west end of Catalina in heavy fog at night. The fog rolled in about half way across the channel. It was a great comfort.
Jeff
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
CG Steering and Sailing Rules
Boat Electronics: What you should know about RADAR
By Wayne Spivak
United States Coast Guard Auxiliary
Remember when you took those standardized tests in school; they give you word problems. Do these sound familiar?
Boats are to Men as Tools are to Men
Boats are to Men as Electronics are to Boats and
Men are to Toys as Boats are to Electronics and Men!
There seems to be a re-occurring theme here. Boats; Men; and their Electronic Toys. Walk into any marine supply store or marine electronic store and you have the men lined up, drooling over the latest radio, depth finder, GPS, chart plotter and radar. If you listen closely to their conversation, and I mean really closely, you'll hear them whispering to each other…."do you think your wife will let you spend the money?"
But seriously, boaters love the gadgets, whether male or female, the advent of electronic navigation tools, as well as other types of electronics have changed boating for the better (though there are many who would whole-heartedly disagree with this statement). But not all the toys that one may purchase for the vessel are really toys.
Sure, a GPS integrated into a chart plotter makes your life easier. You just need to remember to occasionally (like every hour, just as you would plot your DR position) plot your position on a paper chart. Why? Because if we were in the TV game-show business I would say: "Survey says… What are the odds of a boater having an electronics failure on their boat?" I would suspect that many of us who have been boating for any length of time would answer "better than 50 percent."
The one electronic tool (notice the change in description from toy) that changes your legal standing (from a liability standpoint), when installed is RADAR. Radar, as most of us know, stands for RAdio Detection And Ranging; it used radio waves to identify the shape and approximate distance of objects from your vessel's position.
Radar is a tool originally developed by the military in 1940, and was made available to all Allied forces in 1943. How does radar work? The radar antenna is used to send and then receive radio pulses at a specific frequency. The outgoing signal ( which is limited by the height above the water), the pitch of the vessel, and the strength of the radar unit itself, determines how many miles the signal can travel, and how much energy there is for the signal to return, should it find an object. It is the return or echo which is then calculated by the radar unit and displayed as an object on the radar screen.
So, why do the rules change when you install a radar unit?
If you read your handy copy of the Navigation Rules, International-Inland, (a.k.a. NAV RULES) COMDINST M16672.2D, commonly referred to as COLREGS (International Regulations for Prevention of Collisions at Sea), you should have noticed this section:
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 7
(International and Inland)
Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.
(d) [not shown]
So, what does all this mean? It's relatively simple, but very very crucial to the liability that you, as the skipper of your vessel, would incur in a collision at sea:
RADAR on a vessel has one basic function: Collision Avoidance.
If you have a RADAR unit aboard, it needs to be operational.
If the RADAR is operational, then the RADAR needs to be on and scanning while the vessel is underway (including during daylight hours).
While the RADAR is scanning, you, or someone aboard your vessel needs to a) know how to read the RADAR, and b) plot the position of detected objects and constantly monitoring the RADAR.
Failure to abide by these requirements set forth by the NAV RULES can place the onus of a collision squarely on your shoulders.
RADAR is a very valuable tool for those who boat in areas where there are frequent weather changes (such as high fog areas) and those who venture out at night, as well as areas where restricted visibility is a problem. But like all tools and skills, knowledge is the key that permits us to fully utilize these tools and skills.
The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not provide detailed training in the hands-on use of RADAR, but there are many fine private marine education centers that specialize in this type of training. There are also software "trainer" programs available for use at home, before setting getting underway. We urge all boaters who own or are thinking of purchasing RADAR to seek proper training in its use. Moreover, it is also suggested that you train yourself in the use of RADAR during daylight, in unrestricted visibility, so that you will know how to use it when it is necessary (during restricted visibility - fog, heavy rain, dist, etc.).
Lastly, it is important to note that radar should not be thought of as a replacement for a proper lookout; rather it should be seen as an additional tool which can help the mariner avoid collisions.
Bob McCaw, a Navigator for over 30 years, who has sailed around much of the world, and teaches Navigation as a Coast Guard Auxiliarist, believes that RADAR is one of THE most important - if not most important tool a boater can have on board when operating in restricted visibility.
For more information about the Rules of the Road, or the United States Coast Guard, visit www.uscg.mil. The Coast Guard Auxiliary offers an Advanced Coastal Navigation course which serves as a further introduction to the capabilities and limitations of radar. To locate this and other safe boating courses, or to volunteer, visit www.cgaux.org , or contact your local Coast Guard unit, or call the Coast Guard Info line at 1-800-368-5647.
[Please note that radar reflectors are passive, not active devices, and as such only amplify the return signal (make you appear larger than you are) to a vessel who has an active radar unit. We strongly encourage that any vessel which operates at night or in restricted visibility install a passive radar detector, so that they can be "seen better" by those vessels who are using radar.
Boat Electronics: What you should know about RADAR
By Wayne Spivak
United States Coast Guard Auxiliary
Remember when you took those standardized tests in school; they give you word problems. Do these sound familiar?
Boats are to Men as Tools are to Men
Boats are to Men as Electronics are to Boats and
Men are to Toys as Boats are to Electronics and Men!
There seems to be a re-occurring theme here. Boats; Men; and their Electronic Toys. Walk into any marine supply store or marine electronic store and you have the men lined up, drooling over the latest radio, depth finder, GPS, chart plotter and radar. If you listen closely to their conversation, and I mean really closely, you'll hear them whispering to each other…."do you think your wife will let you spend the money?"
But seriously, boaters love the gadgets, whether male or female, the advent of electronic navigation tools, as well as other types of electronics have changed boating for the better (though there are many who would whole-heartedly disagree with this statement). But not all the toys that one may purchase for the vessel are really toys.
Sure, a GPS integrated into a chart plotter makes your life easier. You just need to remember to occasionally (like every hour, just as you would plot your DR position) plot your position on a paper chart. Why? Because if we were in the TV game-show business I would say: "Survey says… What are the odds of a boater having an electronics failure on their boat?" I would suspect that many of us who have been boating for any length of time would answer "better than 50 percent."
The one electronic tool (notice the change in description from toy) that changes your legal standing (from a liability standpoint), when installed is RADAR. Radar, as most of us know, stands for RAdio Detection And Ranging; it used radio waves to identify the shape and approximate distance of objects from your vessel's position.
Radar is a tool originally developed by the military in 1940, and was made available to all Allied forces in 1943. How does radar work? The radar antenna is used to send and then receive radio pulses at a specific frequency. The outgoing signal ( which is limited by the height above the water), the pitch of the vessel, and the strength of the radar unit itself, determines how many miles the signal can travel, and how much energy there is for the signal to return, should it find an object. It is the return or echo which is then calculated by the radar unit and displayed as an object on the radar screen.
So, why do the rules change when you install a radar unit?
If you read your handy copy of the Navigation Rules, International-Inland, (a.k.a. NAV RULES) COMDINST M16672.2D, commonly referred to as COLREGS (International Regulations for Prevention of Collisions at Sea), you should have noticed this section:
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 7
(International and Inland)
Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.
(d) [not shown]
So, what does all this mean? It's relatively simple, but very very crucial to the liability that you, as the skipper of your vessel, would incur in a collision at sea:
RADAR on a vessel has one basic function: Collision Avoidance.
If you have a RADAR unit aboard, it needs to be operational.
If the RADAR is operational, then the RADAR needs to be on and scanning while the vessel is underway (including during daylight hours).
While the RADAR is scanning, you, or someone aboard your vessel needs to a) know how to read the RADAR, and b) plot the position of detected objects and constantly monitoring the RADAR.
Failure to abide by these requirements set forth by the NAV RULES can place the onus of a collision squarely on your shoulders.
RADAR is a very valuable tool for those who boat in areas where there are frequent weather changes (such as high fog areas) and those who venture out at night, as well as areas where restricted visibility is a problem. But like all tools and skills, knowledge is the key that permits us to fully utilize these tools and skills.
The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not provide detailed training in the hands-on use of RADAR, but there are many fine private marine education centers that specialize in this type of training. There are also software "trainer" programs available for use at home, before setting getting underway. We urge all boaters who own or are thinking of purchasing RADAR to seek proper training in its use. Moreover, it is also suggested that you train yourself in the use of RADAR during daylight, in unrestricted visibility, so that you will know how to use it when it is necessary (during restricted visibility - fog, heavy rain, dist, etc.).
Lastly, it is important to note that radar should not be thought of as a replacement for a proper lookout; rather it should be seen as an additional tool which can help the mariner avoid collisions.
Bob McCaw, a Navigator for over 30 years, who has sailed around much of the world, and teaches Navigation as a Coast Guard Auxiliarist, believes that RADAR is one of THE most important - if not most important tool a boater can have on board when operating in restricted visibility.
For more information about the Rules of the Road, or the United States Coast Guard, visit www.uscg.mil. The Coast Guard Auxiliary offers an Advanced Coastal Navigation course which serves as a further introduction to the capabilities and limitations of radar. To locate this and other safe boating courses, or to volunteer, visit www.cgaux.org , or contact your local Coast Guard unit, or call the Coast Guard Info line at 1-800-368-5647.
[Please note that radar reflectors are passive, not active devices, and as such only amplify the return signal (make you appear larger than you are) to a vessel who has an active radar unit. We strongly encourage that any vessel which operates at night or in restricted visibility install a passive radar detector, so that they can be "seen better" by those vessels who are using radar.
Geoff Johnson
Fellow Ericson Owner
I've thought about getting radar, but on Long Island Sound the major hazard is not large ships, which you can see with radar, but boaters zipping about oblivious to the rules of the road so I have pretty much concluded that radar would just give me a false sense of security. Moreover, I have heard first hand several stories of sailboats getting rammed by fishing boats in the fog even though the fishing boats have radar. So my game plan is to seek or stay in harbor when there is fog.
Jewel
Member II
Radar Mount
Hi Jeff,
Thank you for posting the pictures of your radar mount. I have been thinking of installing a chart plotter in the cabin and the articulating arm you have your radar monitor mounted on is exactly what I have been looking for. Did you make this or is it available commercially?
Thank you,
Dan & Julie
Jewel E28+
Hi Jeff,
Thank you for posting the pictures of your radar mount. I have been thinking of installing a chart plotter in the cabin and the articulating arm you have your radar monitor mounted on is exactly what I have been looking for. Did you make this or is it available commercially?
Thank you,
Dan & Julie
Jewel E28+
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
I bought it off the shelf at West Marine
I bought it off the shelf at West Marine. I'm sure you can find it at WestMarine.com or SailNet.com. I had to cut a piece of teak to adapt it to the mount that came with the radar.
I bought it off the shelf at West Marine. I'm sure you can find it at WestMarine.com or SailNet.com. I had to cut a piece of teak to adapt it to the mount that came with the radar.
Radar
I am installing radar on my E32. I looked at the pics of the 27, and I am curious. My 32 is somewhat tender at first, heels over quickly, finds it place and stays at a comfortable heel and will sail all day there.
My question is this: If mounted on a pole or the mast, and at a normal heel, how efficient will the radar be when the angle is pointing skyward and into the water, however slight the angle. I hesitate to spend $1000 for a Questus self-leveling radar mount when I only spent a little over $800 for my JRC MKII 1000.
Len Buchanan
s/v WindShadow
I am installing radar on my E32. I looked at the pics of the 27, and I am curious. My 32 is somewhat tender at first, heels over quickly, finds it place and stays at a comfortable heel and will sail all day there.
My question is this: If mounted on a pole or the mast, and at a normal heel, how efficient will the radar be when the angle is pointing skyward and into the water, however slight the angle. I hesitate to spend $1000 for a Questus self-leveling radar mount when I only spent a little over $800 for my JRC MKII 1000.
Len Buchanan
s/v WindShadow
If you are going to be under sail, healed over going to weather with the radar on... you might want to consider the Garhauer stern post with manual adjustment feature.
FWIW, our use of radar is almost all under power.
Best,
Loren in PDX
FWIW, our use of radar is almost all under power.
Best,
Loren in PDX