propane system rehab

[bgary]

Next up on my project list is to get the propane system working.

Propane tank is in a locker aft, has a regulator and a pretty crusty-looking solenoid attached. Solenoid appears to be non-functional.

I will not be using the stove much (in the near term), and not at all while underway, so my thought is to simply pull the solenoid out of the system for now.... turn on the valve at the tank when I want to heat some water, turn it off at the tank when I'm done. No (?) chance of system leaking propane into cabin space, because it will all be "outside" unless I'm using it.

The other alternative would be to replace the solenoid - and the panel in the cabin. The Panel is a "newtec", and seems to be no longer available, so I'd be essentially replacing the whole system. And that might be more than I want to take on right now, so the near-term Plan B could well be a small camping stove on the counter if I want to heat some water.

Thoughts?

 

[Pat C.]

Nice thing with the solenoid is you can switch off, burn off the propane in the supply line from tank to stove, then close tank. Amount of propane in the line may not seem like much, but it can add up quickly, especially in a poorly ventilated bilge space, like most everyone's is.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Next up on my project list is to get the propane system working.

Propane tank is in a locker aft, has a regulator and a pretty crusty-looking solenoid attached. Solenoid appears to be non-functional.

I will not be using the stove much (in the near term), and not at all while underway, so my thought is to simply pull the solenoid out of the system for now.... turn on the valve at the tank when I want to heat some water, turn it off at the tank when I'm done. No (?) chance of system leaking propane into cabin space, because it will all be "outside" unless I'm using it.

The other alternative would be to replace the solenoid - and the panel in the cabin. The Panel is a "newtec", and seems to be no longer available, so I'd be essentially replacing the whole system. And that might be more than I want to take on right now, so the near-term Plan B could well be a small camping stove on the counter if I want to heat some water.

Thoughts?

When faced with doing a significant upgrade/rebuild of my propane system to bring it up to ABYC standards, I looked at the effort and money involved and decided to just yank out my Force 10 cooktop and replace it with a two-burner non-pressurized (Origo-type) cooktop. By the time I sold my propane stove and aluminum tank, I actually had money to spare after the conversion.

Though alcohol has a bad rap from those pressurized monstrosities, the non-pressurized ones do work very, very well, are utterly reliable, and extremely simple to install. Plus, it is safer overall than propane.

This is not to badmouth propane, which is great and reasonably safe when properly installed. But the performance of the alcohol stove is excellent; I cannot tell any real-world difference between it and the Force 10 cooktop I replaced.. The biggest downside that I can see, though, is that it is a relatively expensive fuel compared to propane. So if you are living aboard and cooking every single day with it, then the costs will add up. For my use, which is regular cruising to Catalina for several days to a week or slightly more at a time, the fuel costs are not significant.

 

[bgary]

Nice thing with the solenoid is you can switch off, burn off the propane in the supply line from tank to stove, then close tank. Amount of propane in the line may not seem like much, but it can add up quickly, especially in a poorly ventilated bilge space, like most everyone's is.

Solenoid control-panel is in the cabin, but the solenoid itself is at the tank, in the propane locker. There is ~10 feet of line between the solenoid and the stove, so... I'm not sure that there is a practical difference between "switch off the solenoid and burn off the propane in the line" and "turn off the propane at the tank and burn off the propane in the line"...

...unless I'm missing something, which is very possible at this point. The only thing I "know", right now, is that when the tank valve is opened, the regulator shows good pressure, but no gas makes it to the stove.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Captive gas in the supply hose(s).

Fellas, Each and every time I fire up our propane stove or propane heater after neither has been used for a while as measured in days, I've had to allow fresh, or any propane, to flow to the burners. In talking to a fellow at my propane service place, he indicated that it somehow dissipates over time, yet no trace of propane odor has ever been evident to me after using either of these appliances once shut off. Who knows more about this condition more than I do? I'd be curious to know one way or the other. Glyn

 

[Loren Beach]

Gas thoughts

Given that this is a 1985 boat, there is a chance that the hose and all gas control devices are old, perhaps the age of the boat.
Trivia: I have read that in the UK, there are requirements that all the propane hoses get replaced every 7 years, but I may be misremembering that.
anyhow, safety certainly is concern with gas.
It might be time to just renew the whole system. Good news is that the hose and the wiring have all been routed through your boat by the factory and you can use the old ones to pull the new ones through. Hopefully.

It's not at all unusual for old solenoids and gas sniffer technology to be compromised by marine air. And besides corrosion, the original device builder is often out of business.
(An aside... there are owners logging in on this site that were not born when their Ericson was built. )

It might be best to just replace the parts, hoses, and all.

Or, consider switching to an Origo range !


Cheers,
Loren

 

[fool]

Should I be silly enough to suggest the stove breaker on the panel be switched to on, the solenoid switch be flipped to turn on the red light, and the button on the switch be pressed to turn the light green? I won't admit on a public forum that it took me about three or four days to figure out how to make a simple cuppa.

Cheers!

 

[toddster]

Fellas, Each and every time I fire up our propane stove or propane heater after neither has been used for a while as measured in days, I've had to allow fresh, or any propane, to flow to the burners. In talking to a fellow at my propane service place, he indicated that it somehow dissipates over time, yet no trace of propane odor has ever been evident to me after using either of these appliances once shut off. Who knows more about this condition more than I do? I'd be curious to know one way or the other. Glyn

Gases diffuse through plastic. Different gases and different plastics at different rates. It diffuses into the air at exponentially faster rates. The odorant molecules from the propane will never reach great enough concentrations to smell at these low rates. You may be able to rent a combustible gas sniffer that will help you track down minute leaks. (I have one, but it is tuned for hydrogen gas. Might work for propane at lesser efficiency... Not sure.)

Example: This is how I measure soil gases and gases dissolved in groundwater... I drill holes in a stake, just large enough to fit a ping pong ball. Then drive the stake into the ground. Come back a week later. The gases in the soil (or water) have diffused into the ball. Whatever was in the ball has diffused out. It's so slow that no significant amount passes while I drive back to the lab. I can take all day to analyze it. Sometimes instead of ping pong balls, I use short pieces of tubing, such as you might use to hook up your propane system. Works the same way.

 

[toddster]

Solenoid control-panel is in the cabin, but the solenoid itself is at the tank, in the propane locker. There is ~10 feet of line between the solenoid and the stove, so... I'm not sure that there is a practical difference between "switch off the solenoid and burn off the propane in the line" and "turn off the propane at the tank and burn off the propane in the line"...

...unless I'm missing something, which is very possible at this point. The only thing I "know", right now, is that when the tank valve is opened, the regulator shows good pressure, but no gas makes it to the stove.

It is pretty simple to bench-test the solenoid valve. Or you could disconnect the hose at the appliance and check for flow with a soap-bubble meter. But the working pressure in a propane line is only 0.25 psi. It takes a good long time for gas to work its way down a long hose to an appliance. And it cannot combust until all the air has purged from the system. When you have to hold down a little button to make it flow, through a pinhole, it seems like forever. It takes me about 20 minutes to get my cabin heater started, the first time in the fall. Of course, we could install a purge bypass valve to make it easier, but that would defeat all of these little gadgets that make us safe.

As others have stated, it might not be a bad idea to refresh the whole system. Except that the kits they sell at all the chandleries are wrong. The solenoid should be upstream of the regulator. The regulator is the weak link in the system, and the most common source of leaks. I would not defeat the sniffer system. When I had a regulator failure on the boat, the gas rapidly filled the cockpit and spilled over into the cabin, faster than it could drain through the scupper. Yeah, I need to build a new propane locker, stat. And still might consider switching to copper tubing just like the old travel trailers. Or even stainless. Properly installed, it's much tighter than butyl tubing. (Hint: I use Swagelok fittings, instead of flares. They were designed to withstand the vibrations of a Saturn V rocket launch. Waaaay over the heads of AYBC committees. They come in brass or stainless. I use them every day for 3000 psi applications. I'm pretty sure they can handle 0.25 psi.)

 

[Curtis]

Curious to know what you end up doing.

I'm also going through the process of updating my propane system so I can use the stove (someday). Had a bitch of a time just sourcing a solenoid valve (Trident seems to be the only one out there). I took the front end of the system to my local propane supply store, and they looked at/certified the tank, valve and pressure tested everything (from tank, through regulator and pressure gauge, to solenoid). I didn't replace the hoses...the old ones look/seem fine. But the more I read, I'm assuming being paranoid and replacing everything is the way to go (especially with propane).