Pointing with a 170

[TwistedLogic]

I raced my E23 mkII c/b offshore last weekend for the first time. I have a new loose footed main and a fairly new roller furled 170. I could not get the boat to point with the fleet. Boat speed seemed okay, but I was at last 12 degrees further off the wind. It did not seem to me that I was getting enough power off of my main. Is the 170 just to big of a head sail to point this boat with? Does anyone else have a similar boat running that big of a headsail? I didn't think of partially reefing the headsail until I was mentally debriefing. Ideas? Similar experience?

 

[treilley]

I race with a 150 RF on my 35 and find that I can outpoint most all other crusing boats and can do fairly well against some of the racers. I do find that trimming the tack is crucial in pointing ability and that I need to move my boom windward of center in lighter air.

The main on your boat may be interfering with the air flow along the 170.

I also find that getting up to speed first and then heading up gets me better upwind performance. This is trick I learned while windsurfing many years ago.

 

[Steve]

!50 question

Treilley...

I assume your on the inside track with the 150, is it a high cut or low cut? I have a low cut 150 and find close hauled I could use a few more inches of track to the aft to get the sheet right. Also get interference with the sheet and life line gate as we fall off. Curious if you run into this?

Steve 35-3

 

[Steve]

170

Are you able to get the 170 tight enough with the tel-tales running correctly? -inside track Is your main traveler fully windward with the right twist at the top and the leach tel-tales flowing? Tight out-haul?

Just some open babbling...

Steve

 

[treilley]

Treilley...

I assume your on the inside track with the 150, is it a high cut or low cut? I have a low cut 150 and find close hauled I could use a few more inches of track to the aft to get the sheet right. Also get interference with the sheet and life line gate as we fall off. Curious if you run into this?

Steve 35-3

Steve I am using the inside track. Mine is fairly low cut. It was a 155 and I found that with our boats you need to have a deck sweeper if you want to trim a 155 properly. I had my sailmaker cut it down to a 150 and now it works perfectly. I can sheet it inside the lifelines right up against the shrouds if I choose. With the 155, I could only just get inside the lifelines and there was no twist in the sail.

I also get interference with the gate and will either move to the outside track or open the gate depending on the length of that leg.

 

[Steve]

Nice photo

Nice photo, looks like your car is at the very end. Assume your reefing the main to keep the weather helm in check at +-18 rather then let down the traveler or reefing the 150 up to 120...

If it wasn't for the bear (by yourself) of a job to pull the headsail down fold, stuff, store on board, I also have a 130, 100, and 70 that I would love to change for fun.. seems when I think the 130 might make for a better family outing, then light wind... and viceversa on the 150 with heavy wind. We also fool with a Flasher once and awhile.

Steve e35-3 #159

 

[Seth]

170 and pointing

Twisted,

There are so many variables which can be causing this, let's begin with car position- are you sure you do not have the 170 car too far fwd? This will create a lot of problems-including shutting down the exoit of the genoa, creating too much heel, and backwinding the mainsail..

If you have the lead right, and can sheet the sail right up against the spreader (maybe 1-2" off the tip in under 5 knots-bouncing off the tip in anything more-assuming you have the boat up to speed), then look at mainsail trim.

If sailing in conditions where the 170 is still the right call (no more than 12 knots I would guess), first get the lead, halyard tension and sheet tension on the genoa right. Ssteer to get the boat moving decently with the genoa working and the mainsail loose-ish.

Then set the main traveller roughly in the middde of the track and sheet the mainsail in so that the top leech telltale is stalled 50-75% of the time (stays behind the sail), and the bottom 2-3 are flying. If the sail is luffing or backwinding, raise the traveller slightly. It is OK to have the boom well above center (provided you are not overpowered), but do not let the top batten go above centerline. Be careful though-if in the process of getting the boom high enough you create too much heel and/or weather helm, you are better to live with some backwinding. The other thing you can try is moving the lead just a bit farther aft. This will open the leech more and reduce backwinding (and heeling), as well as tighten the foot a little..

Give it a try and let us know!
Cheers,

 

[treilley]

Good advice Seth. It is amazing how so many sailors refuse to either move the boom windward of center or let the leading edge of the main backwind. You can see in my photo that the traveler is clearly to windward. The winds were about 15-20. The boat was sailing nicely upwind with 1 reef and the 150%.

BTW, we won that race!

 

[Steve]

Reef question

Also good advise Seth...

Treilley...
How is your main reef set-up on the boom. Do you simply come out of the end of the boom up through the reef point and terminate on the boom? Or do you use the cars and track on the boom that may have been OEM factory set-up? I've tried a few different ways trying to use the cars but found the kiss principle of coming direct out of the end of the boom to the reef point then down to the boom, and not using the cars... other then a movable tie off point.

Steve e35-3

 

[treilley]

Steve, my boom does not have the movable car setup. I simply use the reefing line to the end of the boom as an outhaul and then use a separate line to tie around the boom. Not the most elegant setup but it is easy and works well.

 

[Seth]

Reefing

T,

You should re-think this-as the geometry of the loads on the sail are critical to the integrity of the sail as well as sail shape.

As already noted, by far the best method is to take the reef line directly from the sheave on the end of the boom and go through the clew (reef) cringle, then straight down to the boom-typing a reef knot or bowline around the boom. If the sail is loose-footed, just tie the line around the boom; if you have foot slides, you should be able to tie it between 2 slides at a location directly below the clew (reef)ring/cringle-so that it can slide back when it loads up..If you have a boltrope in the foot on the sail, you will need to cut a slit in the foot of the sail an inch or so above the boltrope directly below the ring-about a 10" slit-so you can pass the reef line through the slit and around the boom..

The main idea here is that as you tension the reef line, it will pull both the leech and foot tight together-self-adjusting and in the right relative amounts-this can only really be achieved by having the end of the reef line free to slide on the boom. When tight, you will have the foot of the sail properly tensioned as the clew comes down to the level of the boom, and in order for the sail not to be improperly loaded this is very important. With the track and car set up (or with a padeye on the boom), you will have to experiment with the location of the car or padeye until you find the spot where you get the right combinations of load when reefed, and if you get a new mainsail with a reef point that is not exactly in the same place as the old one, this location will change.

In the case of reefing setups, the simplest is the best.
S

 

[Frank Langer]

Seth, the staff at Garhauer Marine said...

Hi Seth,

I recently replaced the reefing blocks on the boom of my 1984 E30+ and the staff at Garhauer Marine where I bought them suggested I place the blocks so as to create a 30 to 45 degree angle for the reefing line between the reef cringle and the boom. I think they were thinking to try to equal the pull on the leech and the foot as the sail is reefed.

The blocks are on a moveable track, but have pins/locks to keep them in place, so can't slide while reefing but can be re-positioned as needed. I have placed them so that when the sail is reefed, the block is directly below the reef cringle for each of the first and second reef, with my loose footed main fairly tight along the foot. That way the line coming down to the boom through the reef cringle is coming straight down and I achieve a flat foot to handle the higher winds which prompted the reef in the first place.

Does that make sense and sound right, given what you said in the post above?

Thanks,
Frank

 

[Seth]

Kind of...

If the blocks are positioned right below the clew reef rings, what do you need the blocks for? I think you are saying the reef line goes from the end of the boom up to the reef rings, and then down to the boom...which is roughly where the reef line needs to be secured (slightly aft of directly below the reef rings when tensioned)..so what are you doing with the line going through a block..??All you would really need to do in this type of setup is secure the reef line to the little padeyes on those cars...Although as you know, I prefer to avoid all that hardware-especially with a loose footed mainsail...

S