PLEASE HELP! Poor steering on my 1973 Ericson 27'

[Jeff Asbury]

PLEASE HELP! Poor steering on my 1973 Ericson 27'
I recently hauled the boat and replaced the plastic bushing around the rudder post, installed a new prop, but now the tiller pulls pretty hard to port. Any ideas on how to correct this?

The boat was hard steering before. Problem seem to happen mainly under power.

 

[Graham Cole]

Hi Jeff,
My 30+ will turn radically if I leave the wheel unlocked (under power). Could your problem be related to prop torque?
good luck Graham Cole

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Poor steering on my 1973 Ericson 27'

Thank You Graham Cole. I have someone else tell me that. The boat was retro fitted with a Yanmar 8hp Diesel. Also has a new prop. My last boat was had a transom mounted tiller with no back wash to the rudder. I guess I will just have to live with it.

 

[Jim Payton]

Jeff,
I have a 1967 E-26. I have noticed the pull to port that you are discribing. My boat uses an outboard that sits down in a well behind the tiller. I've discussed this with my sailing buddy, Rick, who is a life long sailer. We only notice it when we are under power, so we have concluded that it is definetly prop related. Rick seems to think that if the prop were in front of the rudder instead of behind then the problem would go away. I wonder?
Jim

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Poor steering on my 1973 Ericson 27'

Thanks Jim,

My prop is in front of the rudder. I only bought the boat about 3 months ago. I have not sailed it much because I have been doing a lot of restoration work. I guess I'm not alone. Some one else with wheel steering said he had to lock the wheel while under power.

Happy Sailing

 

[dave_g]

Jeff,
Last year I bought my '71 E29, which I am told is very similar to the E27. I have an atomic 4 and also replaced the prop (the one that was on it had too much pitch).

The boat handles well under sail. When running under power, it pulls hard to port. The faster the prop speed (not necessarily boat speed), the harder it pulls. This is not a tiller/rudder issue, since it happens only when the engine is running.

If it is prop. walk, you may also see the effect in reverse, where the rear will also swing to port and the bow to starboard.

My boat is hauled for the winter. As soon as it warms up, I plan to inspect the shaft to see that it is centered and parallel with the keel and in-line with the rudder. I will send you an email, after I inspect it, to let you know what I find.

Dave

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Thanks Dave,

I am getting similar responses from others I talk to. It's been many years since I had a inboard and don't recall that effect. I'll just rope it off when I have to make long passages with out wind.

Jeff Asbury
Skipper of "The Pride of Cucamonga"

 

[Loren Beach]

Prop Wash...

Most all boats with inboards will have {some} prop wash effect. It depends on: (1) how close the prop is to the rudder, and (2) probably how deep the rudder is (since the lower part would be in less-disturbed water).
Some models of boat are much worse than others, even within the same design line. While I was shopping and information-gathering for a year, I had experienced sailors warn me about this problem on the Ranger 33 and Catalina 30, to name only a couple. I figured that when even the dealer advised me to find a wheel model of the Catalina because of helm peculiarities... it was a clue to pay attention to...


We can feel a little vibration in the helm of our boat when motoring, but nothing too much. The autopilot does have to crank in a couple degrees of helm to overcome torque steer (as does the human driver...).

My uneducated guess is that on shorter boats the prop is almost inevitably going to be close in front of the rudder, which exacerbates the problem.

Not to be flip about it, but the best solution is to try to always find an excuse to sail rather than motor.


Best,

Loren in Portland, OR
Olson 34 #8

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Excellent Response. I feel better knowing I'm not alone!

Thanks

Jeff Asbury Skipper of "the Pride of Cucamonga"

 

[Jim Baldwin]

Tiller tug

I recentley installed an inboard diesel in a tiller, outboard model '73 E 27. when I examined the factory glassed in stuffing tube, I determined that it didn't look like it was quite straight or in line with the boat. In fact it looked like it had been hap-hazzardly just set down and glassed over. I ended up cutting it out and starting over. I won't know if I did a better job until she is floating again but I can tell you that I think your problem is drive shaft alignment. Significant prop torque is usually associated with high speed, high powered vessels and not our little put-put units. I don't think there is an easy or practical correction. A tiller extension handle with a twist lock and a pocket receptacle is a neat thing to have either way. By the way, I noticed that you are from Cucamonga? My boat is currently on blocks in Riverside Ca. We may be neighbors. Come and look at it out of the water and I'll show you what I mean.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

No, I'm not from Cucamonga. The name of the boat is "The Pride of Cucamonga". I live in Tujunga, CA. Riverside's a little far for me, but's lets keep in touch. Where will you keep the boat when your finished?

Jeff

 

[Jim Baldwin]

reply

I am next-up on the waiting list for a slip in Long Beach so I hope to see you soon... I'll look for you (rail-down), in Hurricane Harbor or maybe Two Harbors, Catalina sometime. Suggestion- Pride of Tuhunga? Well... maybe not.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Try Cabrillo Marina in San Pedro. Nice place. I got in w/ no wait.

 

[escapade]

Jeff;
I have owned an E27 w/Atomic 4, an E30+ w/diesel, and now an E34 w/diesel. My experience is that you will have the torque problem with any inboard powered sailboat. Loren is, I believe, right on target with his assesment. My 27 w/Atomic 4 probably wasn't as bad as yours w/diesel in part because Atomic 4's are direct drive in forward so the prop spins faster and has less effect than the diesels where the prop spins at about 1/2 of the engine RPM. That is why the props on diesel powered boats are so much larger than the A/4's. My 30+ was real bad in reverse, and had very noticeable pull in forward. My E34 is not nearly as bad as the other two, mostly because the prop is almost 3 ft. away from the rudder. My only suggestion, which is what I did, is to schemm, plot, connive, save, struggle, and suffer for 14 years or so till you can find a way to get an E34 or E38. Good Luck! Bud

 

[Jim Baldwin]

I read it in a book

Well, I had to check the books on this one. Two separate issues... Prop torque and prop wash. Prop torque will cause your vessel to turn to starboard if the prop is of right hand rotation, (that's clockwise when viewed from astern and of course, a port turn for left-hand rotation. Big power boats compensate for this by having two counter-rotating props. This is not what your experiencing, right?

The other problem is prop wash. Prop wash is the water which is sent spinning, clockwise with a r/h rotating prop. This spinning water is hitting and pushing against the starboard side of the rudder. The tiller is being pushed hard to starboard and you're on your way to port.

So which is it?

The other replies seem right on when they suggest it is related to the close proximity of the prop to the rudder. I'll bet the E27 with an outboard has no problems.

What to do? That, I don't know.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Thank You Jim,

I have decided not to worry about it after hearing that so many others have the same problem. My boat has been retro fitted with a 9 hp Yanmar Diesel and that may be contributing to the problem. For long passages of Dull Drums I will just tie the tiller off. The best response I got was to sail more and power less.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Asbury]

I finally found my answer. Prop Walk!

I finally found my answer at the Quantum Sails web site.

Prop Walk!

Many sailors claim their boats simply refuse to back up in a straight line. I agree that sailboats are sometimes difficult to back. However with better understanding of the cause of their erratic behavior in reverse, improvements can be made. A movement called prop walk is present in all boats when under effect is more noticeable when backing but propeller power. The also present when moving forward. Propeller rotation when traveling forward is clockwise as observed from astern. Water is thrust aft, passing the rudder for steerage. In reverse gear, however, the rotation of the propeller is counterclockwise and water is thrust toward the bow of the boat. Without pressure (from water) on the sides of the rudder it has no effect on steering. Water rushing under the boat in the direction of the bow does not pass by the rudder and is without direction. Without steerage, the suction created between the propeller (now turning in a counterclockwise direction) and the bottom of the boat causes a sideward movement of the boat toward port. Marine engines (rotating clockwise in forward) cause all boats to have prop walk when backing. To back your boat in a relatively straight line you must first have enough room (distance) to move the weight of the boat aft. When your boat is moving backward, take the engine out of gear and coast. While coasting, the propeller is not turning and no suction or prop walk is created. Your rudder will now steer the boat.

 

[diamondjim]

Steering problem under power

OK guys, great discussion, great ideas. I've got the same problem on my E-28 and no one to date has fully explained the problem and given the solution.
Here is some more evidence:
Last summer I replaced my diesel (same engine) and aligned the shaft with the engine - successfully - because while under poweer, the helm was perfectly balanced!!!! So the job was done right. A few weeks later, I put her in the yard for a bottom paint job and other chores. The boat had been in the water about 4 yrs (PO's watch) so it was due. The hull was in pretty good shape, however the prop was full of barnacles which I removed. No damage to the prop was observed. We splashed the boat, realigned the shaft before getting under way and noticed said "stern walk", "prop steer" or whatever. Bottom line is that the helm now is NOT balanced even after repeated alignments. Further inspection reveals that the power train in this boat is NOT on centerline with the keel. (This allows removal of the prop & shaft w/o removing the rudder.) From the cockpit hatch, peer straight down onto the power train and you will notice how the factory installed the built the engine bed - off centerline of the keel. So I guess the solution is to leave the barnacles on the prop!! Any more suggestions - anyone?

 

[Chris Miller]

38 has plenty, too.

Our 38 has the same issue, but much more prominent in reverse when you just start backing. It's so bad at that particular point that we actually start backing just outside the marina and let the prop walk take turn us stern in to the isle. once we get some speed across the rudder it gets better, but we don't make too many reverse turns to starboard
Chris

 

[Jeff Asbury]

I tried this weekend.

I tried this weekend.

I just gave the boat a little reverse out of the slip THEN TOOK IT OUT OF GEAR and turned the rudder in the direction I wanted to go and COASTED and had no problem. Once again, here's the solution I got from the Quantum Web Site:

"When your boat is moving backward, take the engine out of gear and coast. While coasting, the propeller is not turning and no suction or prop walk is created. Your rudder will now steer the boat".

Go to: http://www.quantumsails.com/products/tips.asp?PLID=2

Download the PDF:

Captain Jack Klang: Maneuvering
Chapter I Take the Helm Rudder Action Turning Stopping Prop Walk Anxiety

It makes perfect sense to me now.