"Search" and ye shall find...
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4189&highlight=pss+shaft
A good thread on this topic, with a link to another.
Loren
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4189&highlight=pss+shaft
A good thread on this topic, with a link to another.
Loren
Dripless packing gland.
Dear Mr. Nestor, Much is said in favor of the dripless packing gland system on this list and a lot of folks swear by it. That said, the modern Teflon impregnated, and now conventional, packing and Teflon putties used along with that packing makes them dripless too. I have used that method for well over a decade with rave results, and only have to adjust the packing cup about once every two years if that. I should mention that I put a pretty good amount of hours on my engine each year too. My concern for using the type you are asking about is that the heart of it is a rubber bellows, much like swing axles in cars. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of or personally experienced cracking and CV joint failure when a crack forms in those axle bellows. My imagination goes to asking myself if they can fail that way in a car, why not on a prop shaft? So my simple argument with myself is "Why invite potential trouble when the tried and true bronze hardware and modern packing will provide the same result." And at a fraction of the cost I might add. Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
Dear Mr. Nestor, Much is said in favor of the dripless packing gland system on this list and a lot of folks swear by it. That said, the modern Teflon impregnated, and now conventional, packing and Teflon putties used along with that packing makes them dripless too. I have used that method for well over a decade with rave results, and only have to adjust the packing cup about once every two years if that. I should mention that I put a pretty good amount of hours on my engine each year too. My concern for using the type you are asking about is that the heart of it is a rubber bellows, much like swing axles in cars. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of or personally experienced cracking and CV joint failure when a crack forms in those axle bellows. My imagination goes to asking myself if they can fail that way in a car, why not on a prop shaft? So my simple argument with myself is "Why invite potential trouble when the tried and true bronze hardware and modern packing will provide the same result." And at a fraction of the cost I might add. Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
I belong to a site for "straight inboards"(powerboat type) and that's the consensus over there as well. One less thing to "fail"!I'll have to throw out a vote for the conservative approach as well, and would recommend one of the variants Glyn mentions in your conventional box. Here's a link to one of the dripless packing kits from Defender:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|311|53222|292328&id=569190
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|311|53222|292328&id=569190
Ericsean
Member III
Dripless Packing
I installed the dripless packing on my shaft of my e30-1, when I had the engine out. I know the new packing material is good stuff, but I (6'5") couldn't get near the stuffing box to assure it was installed properly. My dripless has been in more than 5 years & never have to go near it.
As for the rubber bellows, all it does is exert pressure to maintain the seal. It does not have to bend like a CV joint in a car for steering with front wheel drive.
If you have trouble getting to the stuffing box, I would go with the dripless method.
I installed the dripless packing on my shaft of my e30-1, when I had the engine out. I know the new packing material is good stuff, but I (6'5") couldn't get near the stuffing box to assure it was installed properly. My dripless has been in more than 5 years & never have to go near it.
As for the rubber bellows, all it does is exert pressure to maintain the seal. It does not have to bend like a CV joint in a car for steering with front wheel drive.
If you have trouble getting to the stuffing box, I would go with the dripless method.
Conventional packing.
David, That's exactly what I use in conjunction with the Teflon impregnated synthetic flax. The two combined is what has resulted in not having to adjust the packing cup but once every 2 years or so. Previously with just the Teflon flax, is was way more often that I had to tighten the cup. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
David, That's exactly what I use in conjunction with the Teflon impregnated synthetic flax. The two combined is what has resulted in not having to adjust the packing cup but once every 2 years or so. Previously with just the Teflon flax, is was way more often that I had to tighten the cup. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
Rubber Bellows Replacement
I have a dripless packing setup on 35-III and prior to haulout I noticed some minor surface cracking on the rubber bellows. Since I was pulling my 2 blade Martec folder to be refurbished, and I had already planned on replacing the cutlass bearing, I added the rubber bellows replacement to the list. After removing the coupling from the prop shaft (best told over a cold one) I removed and inspected the dripless components. I thought I had a PSS setup, but in fact I have a Lasdrop product. Never having heard of them, I did some research. While not all complimentry, it's worked fine for me, so I ordered one of their new designed rubber bellows. I lightly relapped the face of the nylon stator and stainless rotating ring per their recommendations (using 320 grit sandpaper). Based on the type of bellows installed, they estimated it to be from the early 90's (my boat was repowered in the mid 90's so its possible it was installed then). While the dripless packing arrangement works great, there is a life of the bellows and I was probably running on borrowed time. Both PSS and Lasdrop both sell individual components - so the bellows can be replaced independent of the other parts. You'll have to know the shaft and stern tube diameters for ordering.
Regarding the cutlass bearing replacement. I made one of the tools posted by Tom to allow replacement without pulling the shaft (don't want to drop the rudder). The new cutlass should be here in time for replacement this weekend.
joe
I have a dripless packing setup on 35-III and prior to haulout I noticed some minor surface cracking on the rubber bellows. Since I was pulling my 2 blade Martec folder to be refurbished, and I had already planned on replacing the cutlass bearing, I added the rubber bellows replacement to the list. After removing the coupling from the prop shaft (best told over a cold one) I removed and inspected the dripless components. I thought I had a PSS setup, but in fact I have a Lasdrop product. Never having heard of them, I did some research. While not all complimentry, it's worked fine for me, so I ordered one of their new designed rubber bellows. I lightly relapped the face of the nylon stator and stainless rotating ring per their recommendations (using 320 grit sandpaper). Based on the type of bellows installed, they estimated it to be from the early 90's (my boat was repowered in the mid 90's so its possible it was installed then). While the dripless packing arrangement works great, there is a life of the bellows and I was probably running on borrowed time. Both PSS and Lasdrop both sell individual components - so the bellows can be replaced independent of the other parts. You'll have to know the shaft and stern tube diameters for ordering.
Regarding the cutlass bearing replacement. I made one of the tools posted by Tom to allow replacement without pulling the shaft (don't want to drop the rudder). The new cutlass should be here in time for replacement this weekend.
joe
Maine Sail
Member III
Some things.
Some things to consider.
1) A PSS or Last Drop is held to the hull with a rubber bellows. It should be inspected and periodically replaced. I replaced one on an older boat that had been in there for 7 years. Once I got it out I sent it to PSS for inspection and they stated it was still in perfect working order.
2) A traditional stuffing box is connected to the hull by a rubber hose! These hoses can and do fail and should also be inspected and or replaced too.
3) 50% percent of boat sinking's can be directly attributed to below waterline fittings. Of this 50%, 31% of these sinking's were due to leaks at stuffing boxes (31%!). Source
Properly installed PSS's don't drip or leak enough to drain batteries from running the bilge pump too much. Lack of proper adjustment on a traditional stuffing box, by boatyards or DIY's, is more common than one would think. A guy at my boat yard came very close to losing his boat after he adjusted the gland himself. He evidently never tightened the "locking nut" tight enough and when he put the boat in reverse the nut spun off the stuffing gland without him knowing it! The only reason he saved his boat was because he forgot his sunglasses and came back about 5 minutes later to water over the floor boards. While he did save it his insurance company totaled it probably adding to that 31% figure from above..
4) PSS's or Last Drops will not damage a shaft if improperly adjusted! I have a shaft sitting in my garage that was ruined by a PO through improper adjustment! Even Gore GFO must have some, even though minimal, water dripping for lubrication.
P.S. My current PSS has over 2700 hours on it! Three trips up and down the ICW....
For more on this subject feel free to read these two articles and chose the direction you want to go.
Re-Packing A Traditional Stuffing Box
Installing a PSS Shaft Seal
Some things to consider.
1) A PSS or Last Drop is held to the hull with a rubber bellows. It should be inspected and periodically replaced. I replaced one on an older boat that had been in there for 7 years. Once I got it out I sent it to PSS for inspection and they stated it was still in perfect working order.
2) A traditional stuffing box is connected to the hull by a rubber hose! These hoses can and do fail and should also be inspected and or replaced too.
3) 50% percent of boat sinking's can be directly attributed to below waterline fittings. Of this 50%, 31% of these sinking's were due to leaks at stuffing boxes (31%!). Source
Properly installed PSS's don't drip or leak enough to drain batteries from running the bilge pump too much. Lack of proper adjustment on a traditional stuffing box, by boatyards or DIY's, is more common than one would think. A guy at my boat yard came very close to losing his boat after he adjusted the gland himself. He evidently never tightened the "locking nut" tight enough and when he put the boat in reverse the nut spun off the stuffing gland without him knowing it! The only reason he saved his boat was because he forgot his sunglasses and came back about 5 minutes later to water over the floor boards. While he did save it his insurance company totaled it probably adding to that 31% figure from above..
4) PSS's or Last Drops will not damage a shaft if improperly adjusted! I have a shaft sitting in my garage that was ruined by a PO through improper adjustment! Even Gore GFO must have some, even though minimal, water dripping for lubrication.
P.S. My current PSS has over 2700 hours on it! Three trips up and down the ICW....
For more on this subject feel free to read these two articles and chose the direction you want to go.
Re-Packing A Traditional Stuffing Box
Installing a PSS Shaft Seal
Last edited:
u079721
Contributing Partner
First thing I did when I got my E-38 was replace the old style flax packing with Teflon impregnated dripless packing - the kind you mold into shape, and then coat with Teflon goo before before inserting. It worked fine for almost 10 years (@ ~ 100 hours/year) before I replaced it with the same material.
The new PSS dripless packing systems are undoubtedly nifty technology. But for me at least the dripless packing worked so well that I couldn't see spending the money.
The new PSS dripless packing systems are undoubtedly nifty technology. But for me at least the dripless packing worked so well that I couldn't see spending the money.
Replacing conventional packing in the water.
All, This ongoing thread brings another thought to mind. I'm sure many of you as well as I, have replaced conventional packing with the boat in the water. In the past, I've simply wrapped a rag around the stuffing box and worked quickly to remove the old from the cup and replace it with new. I have a theory, untested, that using bees wax instead of a rag would staunch the water completely, making the repair a lot drier and less of a strain on the heart. My theory does like this. I carry two toilet bowl rings aboard for use in the event of a small hull or fitting leak that can't be repaired on the spot. The wax is moldable in the air but hardens significantly when exposed to the cold of sea or fresh water. My theory is that it would act the same if used to seal incoming water around the shaft and stuffing box. That would then free one to unscrew the packing cup to take a bit more time to effect repairs without having to worry if the bilge pump will stay ahead of the flow. The wax could be removed at the last just before screwing the packing cup back on. As I've already said, this is just a theory but I don't see how it couldn't work as I imagine. I plan to try it next time I change packing except I just can't get the conventional Teflon impregnated flax with putty combination, to fail and I've been waiting for years and years and years. On another thought, granted there is a wire reinforced rubber hose joined to the stuffing box and stern tube but it is so much more robust in comparison to a bellows that I should think that its replacement could be measured in numbers of decades or more. As to 31% of the 50% of sinkings coming from packing gland leaks, I'd wager that there are a thousand of them for every bellows type, so of course the incidence and percentage of leaking would naturally be greater. Thoughts anyone on anything I've said above? Has anyone ever tried out my wax idea? Regards, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
All, This ongoing thread brings another thought to mind. I'm sure many of you as well as I, have replaced conventional packing with the boat in the water. In the past, I've simply wrapped a rag around the stuffing box and worked quickly to remove the old from the cup and replace it with new. I have a theory, untested, that using bees wax instead of a rag would staunch the water completely, making the repair a lot drier and less of a strain on the heart. My theory does like this. I carry two toilet bowl rings aboard for use in the event of a small hull or fitting leak that can't be repaired on the spot. The wax is moldable in the air but hardens significantly when exposed to the cold of sea or fresh water. My theory is that it would act the same if used to seal incoming water around the shaft and stuffing box. That would then free one to unscrew the packing cup to take a bit more time to effect repairs without having to worry if the bilge pump will stay ahead of the flow. The wax could be removed at the last just before screwing the packing cup back on. As I've already said, this is just a theory but I don't see how it couldn't work as I imagine. I plan to try it next time I change packing except I just can't get the conventional Teflon impregnated flax with putty combination, to fail and I've been waiting for years and years and years. On another thought, granted there is a wire reinforced rubber hose joined to the stuffing box and stern tube but it is so much more robust in comparison to a bellows that I should think that its replacement could be measured in numbers of decades or more. As to 31% of the 50% of sinkings coming from packing gland leaks, I'd wager that there are a thousand of them for every bellows type, so of course the incidence and percentage of leaking would naturally be greater. Thoughts anyone on anything I've said above? Has anyone ever tried out my wax idea? Regards, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA
u079721
Contributing Partner
Silly Putty?
Haven't tried the wax - but how about an alternative. Silly Putty. Before going offshore last year on a delivery one of my tasks in getting the boat ready was to plug off the opening to the haws pipe to keep sea water out of the bilge. I'm not sure where he got the idea, but the skipper wanted me to use silly putty. Worked like a charm. Easy to mold, waterproof, and easy to remove when done. I would think this stuff would be much easier to use than bee's wax, which might be hard to mold. On the other hand, the putty might not have the strength to hold back the water the way the wax would once it hardens. Hmmmm........
Haven't tried the wax - but how about an alternative. Silly Putty. Before going offshore last year on a delivery one of my tasks in getting the boat ready was to plug off the opening to the haws pipe to keep sea water out of the bilge. I'm not sure where he got the idea, but the skipper wanted me to use silly putty. Worked like a charm. Easy to mold, waterproof, and easy to remove when done. I would think this stuff would be much easier to use than bee's wax, which might be hard to mold. On the other hand, the putty might not have the strength to hold back the water the way the wax would once it hardens. Hmmmm........
Maine Sail
Member III
Thera Band
I've used TheraBand. It's the stretchy colored plastic physical therapist use for exercising and resistance training.
Wax is fine just DON'T let any of it plug the stern tube or male end of the gland when you remove it!! An old bicycle inner tube also works well just slice it open and then you can simply "strech wrap" it around the shaft log and zip tie or electrical tape it while you work......
I've used TheraBand. It's the stretchy colored plastic physical therapist use for exercising and resistance training.
Wax is fine just DON'T let any of it plug the stern tube or male end of the gland when you remove it!! An old bicycle inner tube also works well just slice it open and then you can simply "strech wrap" it around the shaft log and zip tie or electrical tape it while you work......
I've heard of using plumbers putty from the outside, packed around the shaft, done easily with mask and snorkel. Then change packing, tighten and then remove putty. Seems reasonable.
I have looked closely at the PSS and Lasdrop and while they seem like a great idea the price is what holds me back. The Gore packing will be installed for this season. According to Gore, the product can be adjusted until it runs dry without issue.
RT
I have looked closely at the PSS and Lasdrop and while they seem like a great idea the price is what holds me back. The Gore packing will be installed for this season. According to Gore, the product can be adjusted until it runs dry without issue.
RT
Maine Sail
Member III
Actually the Gore instructions don't say "can be adjusted until it runs dry without issue". This has been a problem with GFO and owners who have mistaken this product as 100% drip free.
My mistake, when I first installed GFO, was that my desired leakage was none and my expectations were incorrect of the product from reading bad advice on forums. The bottom line is it still needs a little water to lubricate and run cool. If I'd read the instructions on the package I would have known that up front.
Please do not take this as a slam against GFO. If you're going to stay with a traditional flax based system the GORE GFO is by far the best flax type product you can buy. The actual fibers the GFO is woven from are slick & are not just coated with teflon as in the cheaper knock off products.
The statement below is straight from the GFO instructions:
"AFTER THE LAST RING IS INSTALLED, take up bolts finger tight. Do not jam the packing into place by excessive gland loading. Make sure gland bolts are taken up evenly. STOPPING LEAKAGE ENTIRELY WILL CAUSE THE PACKING TO BURN UP. Run the vessel for 5-10 hours and readjust packing to get desired leakage."
Desired leakage is the key phrase. Not dry or drip free.. It's your boat and your shaft so do as you please but please do beware that the instructions DO NOT say "can be adjusted until it runs dry without issue"!
While some installations with GFO will adjust out fine and be drip free it really depends on the condition of the shaft most. If you can get it drip free without it getting warm that's a great but don't count on that as the norm and if you can' get it drip free you may have to accept roughly 3-5 drips per minute when running...
Last edited:
Dferr
Member II
I use GFO and think it's great stuff!!
I would consider myself somewhat of a motor sailer. If the wind is light, I'm motoring. They say GFO is (virtually dripless) I would say it is dripless. I monitor my engine quite closely.
When I first started using GFO I kept a close eye on it, I've never seen it drip. Even after several hours of hard motoring, I checked under the stuffing box for any water, and found none. I grabbed the shaft right at the box and it was cold.
After using it for three seasons, and never having to making any adjustments, I opened the box to check things out and it all looked like new!
I haven't been able to us it in my new to me E-38, cause the stuffing box is too close to the coupling, and it can't be opened. I'm in the process of changing that.
GFO is what's going in.
The link.
http://e-marine-inc.com/products/gfopacking/packing.html#instruct
I would consider myself somewhat of a motor sailer. If the wind is light, I'm motoring. They say GFO is (virtually dripless) I would say it is dripless. I monitor my engine quite closely.
When I first started using GFO I kept a close eye on it, I've never seen it drip. Even after several hours of hard motoring, I checked under the stuffing box for any water, and found none. I grabbed the shaft right at the box and it was cold.
After using it for three seasons, and never having to making any adjustments, I opened the box to check things out and it all looked like new!
I haven't been able to us it in my new to me E-38, cause the stuffing box is too close to the coupling, and it can't be opened. I'm in the process of changing that.
GFO is what's going in.
The link.
http://e-marine-inc.com/products/gfopacking/packing.html#instruct