Onboard charger or solar charger?

captrick

Member I
Hi all -

I recently had to replace all three batteries on board as my Xantrex charger shorted out and overcharged both banks :mad:. Currently I am using a manually attached trickle charger to top off the batteries and keep them maintained, but obviously not the long term solution.

Two banks, (2) and (1). Not a tremendous draw when sailing, and don't take excessively long trips (couple of nights at most without shore power). Am debating a new onboard charger to maintain when on shore power, or possibly solar to maintain the banks (don't want to spend the money on wind, don't have the load to require, and don't care for the turbines). When I am not on the boat, I just want to make sure the bilge has plenty of power should it ever be needed. Current capacity of both banks is about 225 to 250 ah.

I prefer simple and reliable and want to make certain I have a system that does not fry the batts again (flooded by the way - will upgrade to AGM or gel later).

I would appreciate any recommendations on the type of charging system to go with and any additional advice you want to share.

Thanks in advance - happy sailing.
:egrin:
Rick
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
Rick, your explanation of how you use your boat is very helpful. You might want to consider going a step further by doing an energy budget. Try this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3976.0.html

Then you can decide whether or not a shorepower charger or a solar panel will be best for your use, and can size the panel accordingly. West Marine Advisors, on-line and in their catalogs, have a lot of good information on solar sizing.

Maine Sail and others have recommended Iota chargers. MasterVolt also gets good reviews. Xantrex's newer equipment (except for the echo charger) have been getting some BIG hits in the reliability field for the last year or so. Sorry to hear about your issue.

FWIW, we never plug in our boat when we're not there, except perhaps a day before we leave on a long trip (maybe twice a year). We have a small 11 w solar panel that will keep up with the self-discharge of our wet cells and maybe a tad more. When I return from even a daysail, I plug in for an hour or more before we leave and our battery monitor shows we're close to 90% full, and the solar keeps it up. We pretend we're on a mooring!:nerd:

As to "moving up" to AGMs, I would caution against it. You may want to read a few of the AGM topics on this board which have links to Maine Sail's excellent discussion of their merits and shortcomings. I've stayed with wet cells.

All the best,

Stu
 
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EGregerson

Member III
solar

Hi; I've got 2 recycling and 1 recyling starting totaling about 270 amps. Anymore i just use the solar panel. For what i save on elect (25/mo) in the slip, it's paid for in less than a year. It's a 2 x 2 54 watt; fits nicely in front of the companionway; under sail, it's working to power the depth finder and auto pilot, as well as the cooler.
at the end of the day, if u anchor out, there's still power for lights, stereo, etc. I love it.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hi; I've got 2 recycling and 1 recyling starting totaling about 270 amps. Anymore i just use the solar panel. For what i save on elect (25/mo) in the slip, it's paid for in less than a year. It's a 2 x 2 54 watt; fits nicely in front of the companionway; under sail, it's working to power the depth finder and auto pilot, as well as the cooler.
at the end of the day, if u anchor out, there's still power for lights, stereo, etc. I love it.

If possible, a photo of your solar cell mounting setup would be very nice!

Thanks,
Loren
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
I had my boat on a mooring for several years and so installed a large alternator with a good regulator. Anytime the engine runs, and it has to every time I use the boat, the batteries get topped off. On longer trips invariably the "iron genny" gets used enough to keep up with battery charging. I was on a dock last season and rarely plugged in, just didn't have to. Back on a mooring this year and again, the alternator/regulator takes care of the charging. Solar is nice if you have the space, sized correctly they can easily recharge a battery bank, it just takes a little longer. I figure an alternator is a necessity, you have to have one so it might as well be a big powerful unit. Solar is optional, but very nice to have. RT
 

MarkA

Please Contact Admin.
My boat came with a solar panel when I bought it. 50 watts. The charger wasn't very smart so I replaced it. I love it! The panel is mounted to the port component of the stern rail, so I can angle it toward the sun. In Southern California, it's usually pushing 3.3amps (regardless of the angle--but it can be fine tuned). When charged, the float amperage is negligible--no boiling of the wet cells. NEVER use my shore power charger! Not in 5 years of ownership.
 

Akavishon

Member III
My boat lives on a mooring. Her house bank is 200 Ah, plus a 80Ah starting battery (all flooded).
I installed 2x 75W solar panels off either side of the cockpit (don't bother me when sailing), a small solar charger, and a Victron battery monitor. The system runs all my electricity needs - navigation laptop via inverter, all sorts of phone etc chargers, all on-board electronics, music, lights etc (but no refrigeration, yet, wink wink). Under ideal sunny conditions, the charging current reaches 7-8amps - it seems that no matter how much I deplete the bank overnight, the batteries are back to 100% capacity a few hours after the sun comes up.

Since I've gone solar, I've never used my shore power cord again, and I sure don't miss it. :egrin:

Zoran

Solar Setup.jpg
 
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Lawrence B. Lee

Member III
Curious about Amp Hours

Zoran,
I am dying to know how you have a house bank of 200 AH in a 32-3 Ericson. My 32-200 has a precast battery box that will only hold two size 24 batteries. Size 24s don't come much over 80 AH apiece. Are you using 6 volt batteries? My box is not deep enough to hold a 6 volter by about one inch.




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Larry Lee
Annabele Lee 32-200
Savannah, GA
 

captrick

Member I
Great responses - going with solar.

Excellent responses. Done - going with solar. Now just need to validate sizing estimate and wiring.

I am going to diagram my current wiring and do an energy budget. I will post both and would appreciate any opinion on the wiring schematic as well as reccomendations on the size panel to use.

Couple of questions to get started:

Do I wire the panel direct to the batteries through a solar charge controller or to the 1/2/Both/Off switch?

Also, we plan on adding a refrig later. Once the energy budget is done, is there any problem with basing the panel on what the load will be with the refrig given I am going to use a charge controller?

Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate the help.

Rick
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
I will post both and would appreciate any opinion on the wiring schematic as well as reccomendations on the size panel to use.

Couple of questions to get started:

1. Do I wire the panel direct to the batteries through a solar charge controller or to the 1/2/Both/Off switch?

2. Also, we plan on adding a refrig later. Once the energy budget is done, is there any problem with basing the panel on what the load will be with the refrig given I am going to use a charge controller?

If you Google solar for boats, you'll find lots of websites with panels and designs. emarine in FL is good.

1. The former. Never wire any charging source through the 1-2-B switch. In fact, if you do some searching on this board, there was a recent post about battery charging wiring that covered that. Get your alternator output off the C post of the 1-2-B switch while you're at it.

2. Sure, why not. Or, get one panel now with a controller big enough to handle future loads, and then buy a second panel when you install the fridge.

Good luck.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Never wire any charging source through the 1-2-B switch. In fact, if you do some searching on this board, there was a recent post about battery charging wiring that covered that. Get your alternator output off the C post of the 1-2-B switch while you're at it.

Stu - I'm curious what you have against the alternator being wired to the common point of the 1-2-both switch. I, and the majority of sailboat manufacturers in this country, think it is a fine thing to do.
 

Akavishon

Member III
Larry, I suppose I have the same molded battery box. Mine holds two brand new Trojan Group24 flooded batteries, each rated at 100Ah. Since you're not supposed to discharge them more than 50%, that makes 200Ah total = 100Ah usable capacity. I've never been down more than 30Ah, though. I also have an older Trojan starting battery located on the little shelf right-aft of the engine.

I am also very curious to learn why charging equipment should not be wired to the A/B-/ll switch. Both my alternator and the solar charger go there, so I can selectively charge the house bank (99% of the time) or the starter battery (1%).

Zoran

Zoran,
I am dying to know how you have a house bank of 200 AH in a 32-3 Ericson. My 32-200 has a precast battery box that will only hold two size 24 batteries. Size 24s don't come much over 80 AH apiece. Are you using 6 volt batteries? My box is not deep enough to hold a 6 volter by about one inch.
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Larry Lee
Annabele Lee 32-200
Savannah, GA
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
Stu - I'm curious what you have against the alternator being wired to the common point of the 1-2-both switch. I, and the majority of sailboat manufacturers in this country, think it is a fine thing to do.

Tom, the reason they did that was to save $, that's all, and doesn't mean it's a good idea at all. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101

The advantages of moving the AO off the -1-2B C post means your 1-2-B switch can never be a contributor to frying your alternator diodes.

You can do further reading on electrical system upgrades since "the dark ages of 1977" :)
here, "Electrical 101" which includes many links to my posts as well as Maine Sail and others: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

Your boat, your choice, but when I first bought our boat I was faced with the burden of figuring out how to charge two battery banks (house and reserve) with ONE input. I had, of course, an alternator, but we also installed a Freedom 15 inverter charger with only one output, too. Most folks back then, in 1998, had multiple output chargers.

So I did a lot of reading and figured it out, using a combiner, at much the same time Maine Sail did, and we eventually met on the internet. Echo chargers hadn't been invented back then.

You could certainly leave it that way, but make sure you don't ever turn the switch off with the engine running.

Making the change, to me, was a no brainer.
 
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Maine Sail

Member III
I am also very curious to learn why charging equipment should not be wired to the A/B-/ll switch. Both my alternator and the solar charger go there, so I can selectively charge the house bank (99% of the time) or the starter battery (1%).

Zoran

Builders don't do this because it is the "best" option they do it because it is the least expensive and cheapest option that will work..

Here's a few reasons off the top of my head...

#1 Voltage drop issues and more accurate sensing, fewer connections means less voltage drop. One of the number one issues I see with charging systems is voltage drop problems. Even the absolute best termination will add about 0.0015 - 0.0020 Ohms of resistance to the circuit. Now consider how BAD many of these connections are, how undersized much of the DC wiring is, add them up and you can see some decent voltage drops. If you do the math or just put a meter on it you can quickly see how a simple voltage sense wire that carries negligible current, current causes voltage drop, makes a LOT of sense. Sensing the alternator at the alternator means the output wire has to carry the entire capacity of the alternator AND sense the voltage accurately. It rarely happens as it should..

#2 Proper voltage sensing of the bank the charger, controller or alternator is charging.

#3 If you have an Echo Charger or Balmar Duo Charge you must wire it this way anyway.

#4 If you have a Blue Sea ACR or ACR with Dual Circuit Plus Switch you should wire direct to the house bank to prevent relay cycling, unless your house bank is diminutive or the same size as your reserve/start bank.

#5 It 100% prevents you from ever frying the alternator diodes by accidentally passing through off. Not even Zap-Stops can do this. Seeing as we do not yet have marine alternators with avalance diodes protecting against blown diodes, a very common malady of boats, this is fairly critical to prevent HEF (human error factor).

I just recently picked up a Balmar that the owner had blown the diodes on, his SECOND time. It will get a new diode pack, bearings and brush set and he decided the the alt output will be moved to the house bank and the regulator will sense there. He will also get a Blue Seas ACR so he never has to touch his switch other than turning it to position #1 and then OFF..

#6 If you have an aftermarket alternator with external regulator and you want to sense the battery voltage accurately then doing this becomes quite important. It's kind of hard to use battery temp sensors with a battery voltage that is not accurate at the regulator and this compounds problems.

#7 You can't directly sense one bank and leave the alternator output on the 1/2/BOTH/OFF "C" post or you WILL over charge one bank while set to the other "non-sensed" bank. Fixed this little mishap three times this summer alone, and replaced the batteries accordingly. If you put your regulator sense wire on the HOUSE bank and leave the AO on the "C" post then switch to the START battery the voltage on the HOUSE bank will sit there and do nothing while the regulator pumps out more and more voltage to try and get an increase at the battery sense wire. Meanwhile the START battery is sitting there cooking at 17+ volts and the HOUSE bank is still at 12.2V...

#8 In dedicated direct wired starting battery systems your alternator would be charging and sensing an already charged battery, starting battery, which can starve your house bank of the current it needs.

#9 Allows proper sizing of alternator wiring and short circuit protection. A fused sized for starting loads, windlass loads, inverter loads or 2Ga and larger cable can NOT protect the skimpy 10-12GA jumper most builders ship with, that jumps the alt to the starter lug. In a short circuit situation this wire will catch fire long before the larger starter cable does or the fuse blows..


I know I'm missing a few and perhaps Stu can add some more...
 
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Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
I know I'm missing a few and perhaps Stu can add some more...

10. When the 1-2-B switch was originally employed, most boaters had two equal sized house banks, and they switched off daily. That was the two equal sized house bank design. With the increase in electrical loads on boats nowadays, the preferred battery bank design is as large a house bank as physically possible for the anticipated loads and a modest reserve bank. Cobmined with higher output alternators, the old OEM wiring from the AO thru the switch and to the house bank becomes inadequate. Couple that with Maine Sail's point about the small 10 or 12 ga wire between the starter and the alternator and you should be aware of those inherent dangers.

11. One of the other reasons for larger banks is that two small banks, given the identical daily load, are not as good as one larger bank. Why? The SAME amount of lead (two batteries) will last longer if drained at less % of their capacity given the same daily load.
 
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Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
the reason they did that was to save $, that's all, and doesn't mean it's a good idea at all.

Actually, they did it because it was the best technology at the time. Isolaters are evil and there were no combiners available.

The advantages of moving the AO off the -1-2B C post means your 1-2-B switch can never be a contributor to frying your alternator diodes.

Operating a rotary switch is not rocket science. I've been doing it for over 30 years without a problem. I raised two kids on boats and they could handle the switch without a problem. My technology challenged wife has been able to handle the switch without a problem. Of course, on my boat we only touch the battery switch about once a month to test my start battery. I would not be comfortable sailing with people that had multiple screw ups with a 1-2-B switch.


So I did a lot of reading and figured it out, using a combiner...

A combiner works, but it adds complexity to a simple circuit. More money and another potential failure mode.


#1 Voltage drop issues and more accurate sensing, fewer connections means less voltage drop. One of the number one issues I see with charging systems is voltage drop problems.

Adding a combiner adds connection points to your charging circuits, BTW, and adding resistance to a dry sensing circuit doesn't add measurable error. 1 ohm x 10 microamps =0.00001 volt.


#7 You can't directly sense one bank and leave the alternator output on the 1/2/BOTH/OFF "C" post or you WILL over charge one bank while set to the other "non-sensed" bank. Fixed this little mishap three times this summer alone, and replaced the batteries accordingly.

Possible mis-wiring is not a valid reasoning for adding expensive components. It is a reason to avoid them.

Since I don't have the other equipment mentioned and I do have correctly sized wiring I do not believe there is a valid reason to not use the common point of the 1-2-Both switch. That said, have no objection to others adding any equipment they might desire for their boats. I do resent the idea that the simple solution is less worthy in an environment where there are many people without the knowledge to make an informed decision or the ability to correctly wire more complex circuits. KISS.

Rant's over. YMMV
 
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EGregerson

Member III
solar panel

As requested; i attached a pic of the solar panel. The panel rides very well in this location, and, I have never stepped on it while flaking the main! I have a 2nd panel, 45 Watts, that i can set out when out on a mooring and aboard, using lots of juice. Just 6 weeks ago I drilled (ugh) a hole just under the traveller and ran the cables into the salon; drilled, filled, then re-drilled, sealed with 5200. No leak during hurricane Irene (amazingly). I kept the cable length to a minimum of run, and the controller is about 2.5 feet from the battery terminals. I have 2 recycling batteries in parallel, and a recycling/starting battery; when the switch is set to 'both' it charges all 3.

Just a note on the posts about alt wires to the dashboard; there is a technical document on this site (from years back) that describes how to replace the wire from the alternator with bigger wire and modify it to avoid it running all the way to the dash; also a re-wire to eliminate the glow plugs from actuating with the ignition button, if i recall, for Universal engines. Hope this helps.
 

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captrick

Member I
Wiring options for controller

Ok - more questions:

Based on the feedback, energy budget I have started and desired panel size, I am going to proceed with a panel that produces between 2.5 and 3.5 amps (40 to 60 watt). IF, these are going to be wired to the common point on the 1/2/Both switch, and the two banks have different amp hr capacities and amount of charge / drain, which bank is the charge controller monitoring and charging; or is the charge distrubted equally until both banks are charged? Is there a chance of undercharing the larger bank while the smaller bank appears to be full?

If the controller is wired direct to the larger bank; then the back up battery is just that - backup, and charged only off of the altenator when under power?

My preference is for the controller to be able to charge 1 or both banks through the switch if possible. Reason being I can focus the solar charge to the bank that is in need.

Any recommendations on manufacturer of 40-60 watt, polycrystalline (good output relative to panel size and weight)? Seem to be leaning to 45w from UL Solar (seemd sufficient).

Thanks,

Rick
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Rick - if you have two batteries wired to a 1-2-B switch and keep the switch in the Both position to always charge with a solar panel you only have one bank. Not a good situation for many reasons. If you switch to a single battery while sailing and then switch back to both you will be charging the discharged battery with the charged battery primarily and secondarily with the solar panel until both batteries build up charge. This would be bad practice and would shorten the reserve battery's life somewhat, depending on the depth of discharge.

I am not familiar with solar panels or charge controllers so I don't know what is available for charging two banks, but you should look into it because connecting through the 1-2-B switch is a bad idea.

Because of the limited current available from your solar panel this is very different than charging with the alternator.

Sorry I can't offer more specific help.
 

Maine Sail

Member III
Ok - more questions:

Based on the feedback, energy budget I have started and desired panel size, I am going to proceed with a panel that produces between 2.5 and 3.5 amps (40 to 60 watt). IF, these are going to be wired to the common point on the 1/2/Both switch, and the two banks have different amp hr capacities and amount of charge / drain, which bank is the charge controller monitoring and charging; or is the charge distrubted equally until both banks are charged? Is there a chance of undercharing the larger bank while the smaller bank appears to be full?

A solar panel of that size should ideally be routed directly to the house bank unless you are using your starting bank a lot more than normal, then a device like an Echo Charger can send a small charge over to the start bank to keep it topped up. Even without a solar panel an Echo Charger is a tremendous device.

How did you size this? A 2.5 to 3.5A panel can be okay depending upon the size of the bank and depending upon which charge controller you use. Ideally you want the alternator to bring the bank back to 80-85% state of charge and then let the solar panel do the rest, when you're not there during the week. The faster you can bring the bank from 80% to 100% the less sulfation you will have. So if we look at a bank of 300 Ah's you can see that the last 20% is 60 Ah's. However you need to take charge inefficiencies into account too so you'll really need to put back in about 70Ah's to get back to 100% state of charge.

For sailboats the panels are usually left flat when your not there so that you can capture "most" of the sun. In a land based installation the panels are fixed and can be angled at the sun, not so on a boat, so it is very often a compromise. If you are at a dock you can rig the panels and aim them more appropriately but not on a mooring.

Because of this you can figure on about 4-4.5 hours of full output per day on average. Some folks use 5 hours per day but here in the Northeast I found that to be a little to generous.. Some days it will be more some less.

So, a 300 Ah bank @ 20% down = 60 Ah's returned + charge inefficiency = 70 Ah's total need for "full"

A 2.5A output X 4.5 hours = 12.5 Ah's/Day returned to the bank. If you have phantom loads subtract those and that is your "net". Next divide 70 Ah's X 12.5 and it will take approximately 5.6 days to go from 80% SOC to full on a 300 Ah bank.



If the controller is wired direct to the larger bank; then the back up battery is just that - backup, and charged only off of the alternator when under power?

And this should be more than enough. If you are already starting off the house bank then your "back up" is not seeing any use so charging when running the motor should be more than sufficient. Even if you do start off this battery, then switch to the house bank, you're still only using slightly less than 1 Ah to start the motor.. They do make charge controllers that can handle two banks but with a panel that small I would not advise one and would suggest running the panel output direct to the house bank and put the charge where it needs it most.

My preference is for the controller to be able to charge 1 or both banks through the switch if possible. Reason being I can focus the solar charge to the bank that is in need.

The bank in need will almost always be the house bank, unless it failed, and you needed to use the "back up" for house loads. In a situation like that simply pull the neg lead off the house bank and switch the battery switch to BOTH and your "back up" can now be charged via the solar panel. Alternatively add an Echo Charger between the house and "back up" banks.

Any recommendations on manufacturer of 40-60 watt, polycrystalline (good output relative to panel size and weight)? Seem to be leaning to 45w from UL Solar (seemd sufficient).

I have not used a UL Solar panel and in that size range I generally install Sun Wize. Many of the more reputable manufacturers such as Kyocera, Solar World (used to be Siemans/Shell Solar) etc. have moved away from the small stuff leaving a niche for smaller companies to fill. Kyocera still makes a few but they are hard to find. Their 20W panel, for example, runs about $184.00 and their warranty covers the marine market.. They may be just fine and the price certainly looks good but do check with them about a marine market place warranty.

Please be careful with "cheap" shunting controllers. These devices begin switching on/off once the bank hits absorption voltage and can really cut your time to FULL by days, not minutes. The only controller I would use on the UL Solar web site starts at the Morningstar PS-15 which is a PWM controller with float and GEL, AGM and Wet setting. It's a decent PWM controller.

In the case of some of the Sunforce controllers, often sold at West Marine, they switch OFF at 14.2 volts and they do not switch back on again until 13.0V. This may be fine for off grid where you often have a load that sucks the bank back to 13.0V very quickly, but, with a boat on a mooring, with no loads, it can take a healthy bank a LONG time to drop the surface charge back to 13.0V. I have some customers banks of AGM & deep cycle wet cells that will hang out at over 13.0V for over an hour. That is an hour of lost charging time waiting for a cheap shunting controller to switch back on and provide maybe 60 seconds of charging before raising the bank to 14.2V and then shutting off again. Sometimes these controllers will never restore the bank to full.

Below is a video of one of the "better quality" shunting controllers, a Flex Charge PV-7. It goes OFF at 14.2v and comes back on at about 13.6v. This is showing the "current" but you can see it turn on and off. I applied a load of 0.1A just so it would go to -0.1A when OFF for the video. When you get close to full your OFF time can be as much as 10-20+ times longer than your on time with some cheap controllers.

In this case the "ON" time is about 5-6 seconds and the OFF time close to a minute to get the bank back down to 13.6v before it can turn back on again. This bank still had 20 Ah's to go and it would take 5-7+ days for this bank to eventually get "full" from an 80-85% state of charge with 5-6 seconds on and 60 seconds off, remove the 0.1A load and it would likely make this even longer..

Cheap Shunting Controller - YouTube
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Contrast that Flex Charge controller, or a Sunforce, with a quality PWM or MPPT like the Genasun's and the difference in the last 15% of charge, and the time it takes, can be quite dramatic.

I just replaced both a Sunforce and a Flex Charge shunting controller in the last month with Genasun MPPT controllers. On one boat "FULL" was cut from averaging 7-8 days to about 2 days and on the other boat "FULL" was cut from roughly 5-6 days to about 1.5 days. Same boat, panels, wiring, batteries, just a much better quality controller that does not turn ON/OFF like a cheap shunter will. A LOT of the controllers you buy from "discount" solar houses are "shunters"...

If you stick with Morningstar PWM, starting at the Pro-Star series, Blue Sky, Genasun and a couple other reputable controller manufacturers, you'll be doing well. The eBay stuff is very often a scam so be careful.

I have replaced a number of eBay so called MPPT controllers that werenot MPPT at all but rather simple shunting controllers. MPPT controllers do not shut off for long periods of time.

The Genasun MPPT's are a very good value for smaller for panels. Under 150W, that is pretty much all I am installing these days.

Please be careful with "cheap" controllers as you often get what you pay for. Again can't comment on the UL Solar panels but the parent company is in the US so that's at least a start, of course they've only been around 3 years...

I generally buy from Northern Arizona Wind-Sun, Wholesale Solar, eMarine and a few others. I pay a little more but I know the quality is good and they hold up in the marine environment.

I would specifically ask UL Solar what the warranty is in a marine application.

P.S. The biggest performance killer in marine solar is SHADING! You need to keep the panel OUT OF as much shade as you can. Under the boom seems ok, convenience wise, but your charging performance will get killed. I moved one customers 40W panel from under his boom, just in front of the dodger, to his stern push pit and he went from never getting his bank to full to getting back to full in about three days. Same panel, controller and boat just eliminated about 90% of his shading issues.
 
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