New to sailboat ownership

[Jd1681]

I'm looking at getting my first boat this spring and after reading a number of the posts on this website and doing substantial research, I've narrowed my choice down to an Ericson 27. I found a couple of them- one in Illinois and Michigan, they look to be in great condition, both are 1974. I've spoke with both of the brokers and they say they have been very well maintained.

I am wondering what type of maintenance should I expect? It looks like one thing that might need to be replaced is the standing rigging, how much does a project like this cost? Also, once I find the right Ericson and find a surveyor, how much can I expect to spend on a survey? I'd like to figure out some of the costs associated with boat ownership and don't want to get in over my head! Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[treilley]

Welcome JD and good choice.

Don't believe the brokers. Very few are either honest or know anything about the boats they are selling. There are good ones but few and far between. Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. First impressions are usually a good place to start. If the boat is clean it may indicate a caring owner. When shopping for our 35, we used the drive up test. If the boat looked like a piece of sh*t when driving up to it then it probably was. Hire an independent surveyor that YOU find. Follow him/her around the boat. Mine without sea trial took about 12 hours. Boats that sit for sale for a long time determiorate from non use. Ask around the marinas and try and get an idea about the owners fo these boats. Reputation is huge. I sold my Pearson for $3000 dollars more than I paid because I am known as a maintenance freak at the YC. First one to see it bought it on the spot for my asking price. Every boat I have owned has improved in the time that I owned it. Many boats are rode hard and put away wet.

Standing rigging should be Less than $1000. It was about $800 on my old Pearson 28.

Survey should be less than $500. $650 for my 35. I think it was $375 for the 28. Usually quoted by the ft.

Maintenance on a 27 ft. boat should not be all that bad except that it is old and many systems may need replacing if not done recently. The good news is that these boats have few and very simple systems. I paid about $2,500 per year on maintenace(done enitrely myself) and storage for my 28 footer. Another $1500 for YC membership and mooring maintenance. Slips will generally be more. Being a DIYer will help limit maintenance costs.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Glyn Judson]

E27 costs to the new owner.

JD, Welcome to the list, what's your first name? Tim brings up all good points and I'd like to add one more. Expect to at least replace the gate or ball valves in each of your through hulls. Be pleasantly surprised if they have already been done. Our boats came incorrectly from the factory with gate valves (literally garden variety valves) and in some cases one or more might have been unscrewed and replaced with common ball valves. Neither of the above should be fitted to any boat. They should all be proper seacocks, that is to say flanged bases with straight threads in the base and tapered pipe threads on the top. Google gate valve and do to the West Marine Catalog to see the difference between ball valves and seacocks. In fact, seacocks have ball valve assemblies in them but differ as I indicated above. Ball valves have tapered threads on both ends and have no mounting flange. Joining the straight thread of a through hull fitting to a tapered pipe thread such as a gate or ball valve has will result in only about 1 1/2 to 2 threads engagement, an accident waiting to happen with not too significant a side blow snapping the valve right off and allowing sea water to gush in like it was coming from a fire hose. BIt the bullet, spend the money and keep you and your family save and sound. Go to this Groco link http://www.groco.net/catsvcman07.htm to see the two accepted methods of mounting a seacock. I chose not to through bolt any of mine and some of them have been snug as a bug for well over 10 years plus. Pay particular attention to the two methods of bolting as seen in Figure #1. Good luck, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[bigtyme805]

Welcome to our forum. A surveyor in California charges approximately $12.00 per foot. Probably is the same in your area.

Look at your engine very carefully this will be your biggest expense. Make sure this is well inspected.

Rigging will be your next biggest expense.

The integrity of the 27 hull is probably good. Check the Keel for any groundings this could be a big expense. Look for blistering on the hull, probably good but one never knows.

Don't trust your broker he only makes money if you buy and the market has been bad of late.

Check your sails and how much life is left. This is a big expense if replacement is needed. Approximately $2,000.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[sterling8008]

I purchased my 1976 E27 about 18 months ago which has the split cockpit design (wheel steering), two cabin overhead hatches and the inboard Atomic 4. What is the design of the E27 you are planning to buy and what is it powered with?

 

[ChrisS]

Aside from slip fees, and a haulout every other year, boat ownership is as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be. There's a guy at my marina who has an E-25 and sails at least three times a week, but spends less $$ on his boat than anyone else I know. He has limited extras (like electronics) on his boat and picks all of his sails up used. On the other hand, money burns a hole in my pocket and so I'm always upgrading and tinkering. Time to keep things looking good and working well is also a consideration--plan to spend half as much time working on the boat as sailing it.

In the end, owning a boat will cost some dough, but every one has got to have a vice, and in my mind, sailing beats all others. How much does two or three rounds of golf a month cost, or a new BMW? Pick your poison...

As others have said on this thread, buy the best maintained boat you can find, and get it surveyed by someone who has no affiliation with the broker. Also, I'm not sure what kind of sailing you are doing, but don't pass up an E-27 with an Atomic Four if the engine is in good shape. The money you save buying a boat with a gas engine (instead of a diesel) can be put back into the boat in the form of some cool, useful toy you may want, like radar or nice sails.

 

[Jd1681]

Wow. Thanks for all of the responses! The E27 I am looking at is not split cockpit, but it does have a steering wheel, so I'm assuming it was a modification done by an owner after purchasing the boat. It is not the Atomic 30, but rather a Volvo 15. I am in Michigan and plan on getting a slip in Muskegon. Anyone familiar with this area? One of the boats is located in Racine, WI. I'm going to take a trip over there in the next month or so to take a look at the boat as well as find someone to do the survey.

Thanks for the heads up on the through-hulls and sails. I will be sure to look at those and bring them up with whoever does the survey.

I think as a starting point I'll give the owner of the boat a call. His listing says he has names and contact information for people at a marina that worked on the boat. I'll contact them too before taking the 5 hour drive to look at it. Thanks again for everyone's responses!

Jeremy

 

[Rob Hessenius]

Racine Boats

Jeremy- Welcome to the group. I hope you enjoy this site as much as I do. Are you looking at the blue and white E-27 or the black and gold 27 in Racine? Both look like well cared for boats. I bought my boat (e-25) out of Azarian's in Racine in 04'. I did'nt have a survey done, mostly because I did'nt really know how to buy a boat. I did not even know about this site at that time. I was lucky to end up with a solid boat that just needed some "lovin". Over the past four years I have gone through the boat and upgraded virtually everything except the sails.
As we speak, my standing rigging is being made. I will be able to give you a pretty good dollar figure soon. I choose to replace my rigging because of the unknown, meaning I really didnt know if it was thirty four years old or seven years old. It looked ok, but I just felt like I should change it. I now will know that it was new in 08. Last year I replaced the forestay within the Harken Furler. there was some added expense with foil parts and shims and a swage-less fitting I don't think that there is much of a difference between the 25 and 27.
I would contact Larsen Marine in the Chicagoland area to ask them about someone to take a look at your potential boat. I believe they were the Ericson dealer for that region. They will know who the right guy is.
Your largest dollar expense will be the engine if it pukes on you. Sails are pricey too, but if you plan on being a cruiser, old sails work fine. The luxaries on the boat are not necessities. These can be bought over time. If you are handy and capable of doing a lot of work yourself you will save mucho bucks. Slipping the boat is a annual expense that really hurts, but I think of it as a cost of a trip, except you get to go on it for five months.
Winter storage fees suck!
I hope everything works out for you and you end up with an Ericson. You will not be dissappointed. I was once told you should never worry about money, until you have lost the ability to make more.
Regards
Rob Hessenius

 

[Mindscape]

Larsen Marine

Jeremy,
Welcome and good choice!
If you do decide to contact Larsen Marine in Racine - they were an Ericson dealer and one of the guys that sold them, and is still selling boats for them is John Jirsa. John was pretty knowledgeable about the Ericson line, but as has been mentioned take what he says with a grain of salt since he is a broker and salesman for Larsen's. He pointed me at my 32, which I bought thru them and feel like he was pretty helpful.

 

[Jd1681]

Rob- thanks for the info. I'm looking at the blue and white E27 in Racine. Have you looked closely at this boat? The listing says it needs a new depth and knot meter. If you have looked closely at it did you notice any damage to the depth/speed sensors above the rudder? I'm wondering if the previous owner backed into something... Other than that it looks to be in great shape and i'm looking forward to making the drive out there to see it.

 

[Rob Hessenius]

Racine Ericson

Jeremy- No, I have never seen this boat in person. I just saw it on a boat site www.ablboats.com. There were no pictures showing the boat out of the water. I would doubt that there are any issues with the transducers related to a grounding but rather due to there age. Lots of thick water down there. If the depth and knot dont work thats a "cheapy" to rectify. It also appears to be a tiller rather than a wheel? To me it looks like it is worth a drive "down and around". Rob

 

[Bill Upchurch]

Jeremy

Welcome aboard. You will soon become aware that Boat stands for
Bring Out Another Thousand.

Sailing is worth it.

 

[sleather]

Good Time to BUY!

Jeremy, WELCOME a-bored(winter blahs), from a fellow "climatically challenged" Great Lakes/Landlocked sailor! This site has "many" active 27'ers so any specific questions will be dealt w/ post-haste!

With gas prices being what they are, :eek: investing in "sail" is a wise move! I think the "used" sailboat market is going to see a "rebirth" in the near future. I've got both and I'm looking forward to more "QUIET" time next year!

You may want to start a "new" post for a Midwest Surveyor as I think there "may" be one on the site that resides in Wi?? If not someone may know of one(Seth?)
I bought my first boat(Cal 21) from Larsen in '74.

Good Luck on the purchase!

 

[Mort Fligelman]

Larsen Marine & Survey

Jeremy:

Good luck in your Search......

In the summer of 05 I made contact with Jim Molick at Larsen in Waukegan....I had talked to a few other "salespeople" there over the years...including John Jirsa...both there and when he worked for Skipper Buds in Northpoint (Winthriop Harbor, IL)......with the exception of Jim my advice is to belive half of what you see.....AND NONE OF WHAT YOU HEAR......

Jim sold my boat for me and even though I had bought another Boat before the sale he was very happy that I had found what I was looking for, and continued to keep working for me......

There was a surveior Mel Surdel who did an Insurance survey for me back in 1995......I know that it was a long time ago, but if he is still around it is worth talking to him.....he was knowledgable.....not rocket science....but then I have never met one that was so endowed.

I had a friend who had an E-27, Circa 1972.....great boat....he went on to a 34 Ericson that he called Firecracker....won the Mac along with many major races on Lake Michigan......it seems that everyone I knew that had an Ericson loved it......so...I decided that was my route also....

You cant to wrong if the boat is basically sound.....

Suggest you also check www.yachtworld.com......

Good Luck

Mort Fligelman
Acapella
E35-3

 

[Mike T]

Midwest Marine Surveyors

Jeremy, There are a number of very good marine surveyors in the area. Melvin Surdel is still surveying, along with I believe his son Michael, They are listed under A-1 Surveying at 1-800-809-0906. You can also locate a local SAMS surveyor at www.marinesurvey.org they are listed by location.
The cost of the survey will vary, but expect to pay between $12.00 and $14.00 per foot, plus travel fees. Be sure to ask the surveyor if they are familair and confortable surveying a sail boat, some are not.
I am a surveyor in the area, and very familiar with Ericsons and there construction. I currently own an Ericson 30-2, hull number 3.
Many conditions will influence a marine survey this time of year in the midwest. The boat needs to be ready for survey in order to be properly inspected.
1. Is the boat stored inside or outside? Is the boat covered?
2. If it is inside storage, heated or non-heated?
3. Has the boat been winterized?, battery removed or is it still installed?, if it is installed, is it fully charged?
This time of year, it would be "ideal" for the boat to be located in a "inside heated storage" facility with battery in place, fully charged to test the DC systems on the boat for the survey. 110 VAC available to test AC systems.
This normally not the case. If the boat is stored in a non-heated area, or outside, it will compromise moisture readings and percussion testing of the hull and deck. In this case the boat would need to be move to a heated area for 48 hours or longer before the survey is done to thaw out any moisture that may be present and frozen. Unless the boat is on a trailer and the facility has a open heated service bay large enough to put the boat in, I would consider trying to delay the survey until the outside temperatures stay above freezing.

Above is just the tip of the "Ice Burg" for a survey during the winter.

Good Luck in your search, Ericsons are very well built and great sail boats

(sleather. I'm counting the days to "Stricly Sail" in Chicago to help deal with the winter blah's)

Respectfully Yours

Michael Tock, SAMS S.A.
Lakeshore Marine LLC
2622 Wilgus Ave.
Sheboygan, WI. 53081

920-452-3361 office
920-627-6123 mobile

 

[CWM]

JD:

Check the strut carefully.

I purchased my E27 in June, 2007 and the strut was hanging upside down on the prop shaft.

Apparently the strut needs a zinc which many owners do not install.

Also, blisters can be a problem, as well as the spreader sockets.

 

[newgringo]

Also a new sailor

Jeremy,
My wife and I are also new sailors and bought an E32-3 just 2 yrs ago. I have only 2 pieces of advice (which has probably been already stated by others above):
1. Buy the newest boat in the best condition you can find, even if it exceeds your budget. Lots of sailboat repairs (like rigging, masts, engines, etc ) are very expensive to repair/replace once you own the boat. So much better to not have to start out fixing big things.
2. Get involved with a club that promotes sailboat racing. I learned more about sailing in one summer of racing than I would have in cruising in many years (and it is fun). Learning to sail is a challenging and exciting and it never ends. Great activity.
So- Go For It !
Oh, and yes, we just stumbled into an Ericson. So glad we did. Fantastic boat.

 

[sterling8008]

For a 27 footer I dont think you cant beat the Ericson, the layout and interior volume is great. The hull and keel are laid up as one piece which makes for a strong boat. Some of the fuel tanks were fabricated from steel sheetmetal which has a tendency to corrode sooner than most other materials, and in time leaks will occur. Good choice, however have some reserve funds for the unexpected.

 

[sterling8008]

Correction - In the first sentence the word cant should have been "can".

 

[Jd1681]

Thanks for all of the responses. I just dropped the check in the mail to reserve a slip at Torresen Marine in Muskegon, MI. I've decided to wait until March to make the move on purchasing an E-27 as there are a few of them in the area and I'd like to have a good survey done. In order for this to happen it sounds like the boat has to be thawed for 48 hours, which probably won't happen until March in the great lakes area. Thanks again for everyone's input!