new-owner paranoia, or shamefully late to the winterizing program?

[bgary]

I've been watching the temps around here (Seattle area) drop into the 20s at night for the last couple of nights. And having a hard time sleeping, worrying about the new girl on B-dock.

There has been frost on her decks (which she seems to be accepting with dignity), and there are no apparent problems - nothing frozen inside the boat, bilge water is liquid, not ice, fresh water comes merrily out of the faucet, etc.

Water temp in the marina is around 45F. Logically, that "should" be warm enough to keep things from getting too cold below the waterline - fresh-water tanks, thru-hulls, etc, even though all are exposed to colder air inside the boat. but... I worry. And it has me wondering if I should be doing things.

*Should* I be doing things, like

-- drain the fresh water tanks and purge the lines?

-- drain the exhaust can?

-- drain the water-heater/heat-exchanger?

-- close thru-hulls and pour anti-freeze down sinks?


....or should I throw another log on the fire and cut back on the caffeine?


And, as a related thing, the Ericson owner's manual says that the "engine fresh water system cannot be run through an empty water heater". Does that mean I need to bypass the water-heater (disconnect the engine freshwater hoses from the heater and connect them together) before I run the boat to her new slip later today? At this point, I'm not at all sure how much water is even in the water heater...

(O_O)

 

[supersailor]

Essentially, I don't do anything. I do drain the water tanks but don't purge the lines. I try to take the boat for a little spin every two weeks or so. That gets the marina crud off the bottom and keeps the prop clean. I do run an electric heater on low. That keeps the inside temps above freezing and I put out two dry-z-airs out to keep the humidity down to under 70%. The main and 130 are in the master closet at home. The two spinnakers and storm jib are in another closet. A cover is over the cockpit. I leave the side cover for the engine off so the warmer air can reach the water heater and engine. I also have a temp/humidity gauge below to track the inside temps. No problems in the last few years.

 

[bgary]

Thanks

I do run an electric heater on low. ... I leave the side cover for the engine off so the warmer air can reach the water heater and engine.

Thanks!

Any recommendation on a good (safe, reliable, not-going-to-overheat-and-burn-up-my-boat) heater? I know West has a ceramic one, which seems to have good reviews except the thermostat doesn't apparently turn the thing off, just "down". They also list a 400w "bilge-safe" engine-compartment heater, which is twice as much money but the lower heat (and element which "can't overheat") make it sound interesting.

 

[toddster]

I just use a small inexpensive oil-filled radiator type heater. No idea where it came from, it was my Mom's. Maybe 12" high and 12" long. Dang. Now it's coming to me that I may have switched it off last week when it was "warm(er)." I went to the boat yesterday with the full intention of having a short ceremonial first-day sail. But the horizontal snow somehow dissuaded me. I didn't check the heater...

I don't remember hearing the admonition about running the engine with an empty water heater before. I may have done it once or twice... If it were a big issue, I would just run a bypass valve.

I do feel a little bad that I've left the sails and rigging out in the weather, but there are usually a few weekends all through the winter with decent sailing conditions. If I had to re-rig the boat each time, I probably wouldn't sail at all in the winter.

What we really should do is some kind of grand experiment to ease our collective minds. If everyone took periodic measurements of water temperature, air temperature, and cabin temperature, we'd have some actual data instead of guesses about what is OK. (And maybe lazarette, temp, if there is plumbing in there.). Anyone have a source for inexpensive (recording?) thermometers? My depth sounder has a water thermometer - I've been thinking of adding an automotive indoor/outdoor unit at the nav station.

 

[supersailor]

I am using the West Marine model 7867500. You want a low heater that can't be knocked over easily. Most of the temperature controlled ones won't turn on again until reset after a power outage. The West heater has a 5 amp setting for low power and up to a 13 amp setting for high power making ideal for use while at transient moorings. It also is easy to stow under the V-berth.

 

[Tom Metzger]

"engine fresh water system cannot be run through an empty water heater"

This is the actual quote from the E-32 & E-34 manuals on this site:

"Caution: This should be done before the water is heated by either the engine or 110 volt system."

To the best of my knowledge this relates only to filling an empty fresh water system. If the tank is hot it may create a thermal shock and hurt the tank when you introduce cold water. In the owner's manual it is in the section on bleeding the water system.

I wouldn't worry about running the engine coolant through an empty tank. Don't turn on the breaker, though. The heater element will burn out.

Were you thinking of a reference to the engine coolant recovery tank being empty?

 

[Loren Beach]

Brrrrrr...

I just use a small inexpensive oil-filled radiator type heater. No idea where it came from, it was my Mom's. Maybe 12" high and 12" long. Dang. Now it's coming to me that I may have switched it off last week when it was "warm(er)." I went to the boat yesterday with the full intention of having a short ceremonial first-day sail. But the horizontal snow somehow dissuaded me. I didn't check the heater...

I don't remember hearing the admonition about running the engine with an empty water heater before. I may have done it once or twice... If it were a big issue, I would just run a bypass valve.

I do feel a little bad that I've left the sails and rigging out in the weather, but there are usually a few weekends all through the winter with decent sailing conditions. If I had to re-rig the boat each time, I probably wouldn't sail at all in the winter.

What we really should do is some kind of grand experiment to ease our collective minds. If everyone took periodic measurements of water temperature, air temperature, and cabin temperature, we'd have some actual data instead of guesses about what is OK. (And maybe lazarette, temp, if there is plumbing in there.). Anyone have a source for inexpensive (recording?) thermometers? My depth sounder has a water thermometer - I've been thinking of adding an automotive indoor/outdoor unit at the nav station.

Well, it was not scientific per se, with no data collected... but back around the mid 90's we had a Really Cold Snap in the NW. We had only owned the Olson for a short while, and it was/is moored on the Columbia River adjacent to PDX. Lots of exposure to George winds in the winter.

For about a week the temps were around 20 and the east winds howled. After a few days there were increasing ice bits and small floes moving down from up river. The moorages on Tomahawk Island froze, and then the slower-moving water near the banks froze around boats in the moorages along Marine Drive... and that's where RCYC is.

Finally there was solid ice from the head walk to about the stern and I tested the ice by the bow and it held my weight. I did not linger, having completed the experiment!

Meanwhile, inside where there was a small amount of water in the bilge.... that water froze solid.
So, when it's cold enough to bring the outside water to freezing the inside will also freeze.
OTOH, I had already winterized the engine and drained the drinking water tanks and lines. No harm - no foul.

We have experienced cold winters since but never (!) one like that.

I was not utilizing an AC cabin heater, and still seldom rely on the one that we keep on board. My take on it is that if you rely on those, the shore power will fail during the same conditions that caused the freezing. (We lose power during high wind events at least once a year out where the boat moors.)

Regards,
Loren

 

[bgary]

Were you thinking of a reference to the engine coolant recovery tank being empty?

I was referring to section 8.2.1 in the E32 manual, the section on winterizing the engine. The full paragraph reads

"The engine fresh water system should be adequately protected if a 50/50 mixture of water-to-antifreeze (glycol) has been maintained throughout the season as prescribed in your engine manual. However, since the potable fresh water system must be freeze protected (see section 8.2.2), and putting that system in and out of service is an involved process (you will probably want it to remain out of service for the winter) and, since the engine fresh water system cannot be run through an empty water heater, the hot water heater must be bypassed in the cooling water circulation system."

​

(emphasis added)

Section 8.2.2 is directions for draining the fresh-water tanks, and then disconnecting and emptying the water heater, prior to adding antifreeze into the system.

Bruce

 

[bgary]

My take on it is that if you rely on (an AC heater), the shore power will fail during the same conditions that caused the freezing.

Yeah, that's about the least-bad of the dozen or so failure modes that have occurred to me.

I just got back from the boat, and all is well, It is cooooold, down there, but the interior temp in the boat was about 38F. Water was still liquid, inside and out (although there was a fair amount of frost on deck).

I had to move the boat to her new slip today, and so I fussed with some things... added 5 gallons of water to the starboard tank, and ran the pressure water with the "hot" tap open in the galley to make sure water was coming through the water heater. Once I was sure the water heater wasn't dry, started the engine and let it come up to temp, and before long warm water was coming out that tap. So... whatever else I don't know, at least now I know there's water in the water heater.

It's supposed to get warmer over the next couple of days, and there are no sub-freezing temps in the 10-day forecast. So I have plenty of time to think of something new to worry about.

Bruce

 

[Loren Beach]

I was referring to section 8.2.1 in the E32 manual, the section on winterizing the engine. The full paragraph reads

"The engine fresh water system should be adequately protected if a 50/50 mixture of water-to-antifreeze (glycol) has been maintained throughout the season as prescribed in your engine manual. However, since the potable fresh water system must be freeze protected (see section 8.2.2), and putting that system in and out of service is an involved process (you will probably want it to remain out of service for the winter) and, since the engine fresh water system cannot be run through an empty water heater, the hot water heater must be bypassed in the cooling water circulation system."

​

(emphasis added)

Section 8.2.2 is directions for draining the fresh-water tanks, and then disconnecting and emptying the water heater, prior to adding antifreeze into the system.

Bruce

That caution about the engine coolant pipe inside the hot water heater puzzles me. The engine coolant circuit involves quite a route through heat exchanger tubing, reinforced hose, and that copper elbow that leads it under the alternator on a Universal diesel. Then there are brass connectors and valving on the top of the engine adjacent to the thermostat. I cannot imagine that the routing through the metal tubing inside the water heater would be at all affected. Heck, on our boat that same coolant circuit also goes thru the copper innards of the "Heatercraft" cabin heater before returning to the engine compartment.

Hopefully someone can explain this or put it into a better perspective.
Cheers,
Loren

 

[bgary]

That caution about the engine coolant pipe inside the hot water heater puzzles me.

Me too. I thought, for a while, that it might be the other side of the equation - not that running hot engine water through an empty water heater might be bad for the water heater, but that it might be bad for the engine - failing to provide a way to transfer heat out of the engine cooling loop.

But then if that were the case, bypassing the water heater entirely would similarly fail to provide a way to transfer heat out of the loop. So.... still puzzled.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Bruce - You got me. That said, I have winterized Xanthus 19 times and usually run the engine for a while to heat it up before getting to my slip. I'll admit the water temperature is about 40* in the spring so the engine doesn't get extremely hot.

I just looked up the Seaward Products and IsoTemp owner's installation manuals and neither one mentions a problem running engine coolant through them when empty.

I think the Ericson manual writer had a brain fart. Can anyone document a problem?

 

[supersailor]

Loren, You do have a point. We who live out here in the great salt chuck experience water of 50 degrees plus or minus a degree or two all year. You, on the river, are at the mercy of what is happening many miles upstream (inland). Everett is one of those interesting areas where the marina is actually on a river but very close to Puget Sound. I suspect that it would be colder than the Sound but not able to sustain the extremes that the Mighty Columbia is capable of. This current cold spell is a good test. I was going to take the MG (no roof) to a car meet yesterday but the 24 degree temps caused a cancelation at the last moment. These temps are colder than we are used to. I would think the Everett harbormaster would be a good source of information about winterizing there. Also, the YC.


Everett can be an interesting place to get in and out of. I can remember barely moving in a smaller boat when we were entering against the tide and river current. That part of Puget Sound also has different flows than the rest of the Sound.