New jib sheets for E-23

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pheiner

New Member
New Ericson-23 Mk II owner here (and first-time boat owner). I've got a few things I'm looking to do with the boat, one of which is replacement of the jib sheets.

Currently, it's got 1/2" jib sheets that are the same color as the main sheet and is a little confusing for family that I'm taking on board, so I'd like to replace with a different color ("The jib sheet is the blue one!"). Additionally, I'm looking at getting some of those Barton winchers to make things easier when I'm solo, but 1/2" sheets are too big for the Barlow 15 winches on the boat, so looks like if I want to use them, I'll have to downsize. Thing is, I've never bought new sheets before, so I've got some questions that I'm hoping folks can help me with.

- 1/2" is a bit overkill on that size of boat, isn't it? (though it is nice on the hands) Is 3/8" more appropriate? Does it really matter other than if I want the winchers?
- I've sometimes seen a continuous jib sheet rather than two sheets tied at the clew. Is one better than the other?
- How long of sheets should I get? Is there a rule of thumb based on boat length?
- I'm a casual sailor, though racing with my local yacht club isn't out of the question. Recommendations on which line to get/where to get it? I'm most interested in comfort and thrift.

Thanks!
Parker
 
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Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
What size jib sheet?

Parker, Welcome aboard, you just bought a fine boat and are in good company as there are a lot of E23 owners lurking here. I'd first be tempted to go to the Barton wincher web site to see if the size you are interested in list the working size of line for them. Secondly, as you'll be buying new line, consider making them different colors, red for port and green for starboard. Then when others are aboard and you need help, you can simply ask them to grab the red line and wrap it around the winch, etc. Best of luck and lets hear more from you and your exploits. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
 
toddster

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
I'd go with 3/8 for everything. I've recently "discovered" two alternate sources for yacht braid, considerably cheaper than the chandleries, if buying any significant quantities. The biggest savings seem to come with 600-foot rolls, if you can use that much. But then you get only one color.
Valley Rope (valleyrope.com) and Columbia Basin Knot Company (cbknot.com), both available on Amazon and/or Ebay. Both claim to carry all US-made product. I'm not sure if either of them is a manufacturer or just resale. According to Google Earth, the address for CBK is just a house and a barn out in the boonies near Spokane.
 
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Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Jib sheets again.

Parker, Toddster speaks with great authority on this site and is in the ball park when suggesting 3/8" line. I might be tempted to go even smaller and consider 5/16" line. Certainly 1/2" is waaaay overkill. I went to the Barton Marine web site out of curiosity and they suggest 8 to 10mm for their smallest wincher which is probably what will fit your Barlow 15's. Let us know the outcome, Glyn
 
bgary

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
pheiner said:
- 1/2" is a bit overkill on that size of boat, isn't it? (though it is nice on the hands) Is 3/8" more appropriate? Does it really matter other than if I want the winchers?
- I've sometimes seen a continuous jib sheet rather than two sheets tied at the clew. Is one better than the other?
- How long of sheets should I get? Is there a rule of thumb based on boat length?
- I'm a casual sailor, though racing with my local yacht club isn't out of the question. Recommendations on which line to get/where to get it? I'm most interested in comfort and thrift
Click to expand...

Bruce's Opinion (tm, patent pending, void where prohibited by law...)
-- yes, 1/2" is overkill for the loads on that size of boat, but "nice on the hands" is super important for jibsheets because you handle them so much. I wouldn't go smaller than 3/8" (10mm), and I'd look for line with a "soft hand". I'm using 10mm "Globe 5000" for jibsheets on my E32-III, and like it a lot.
-- I generally don't like continuous jibsheets (or spinnaker sheets) from a safety perspective. Maybe that's just me.
-- 2x boat length is a good starting place (might be a little long, but long is better than short. If you want to measure, measure from the winch on one side, outside the shrouds, in front of the mast, to the winch on the other side, plus a few wraps, plus some "tail". That's how long *one* jibsheet should be.
-- low-stretch is good for jibsheets, and there are a lot of good choices. Samson MLX is a decent choice, I don't personally like StaSet but I know a lot of people do. I watch for the sales (West Marine, Fisheries Supply, Defender, APS, etc)... if you know what you want and how much of it you need, ordering a cut length online is often a good way to go.

Bruce
 
p.gazibara

p.gazibara

Member III
I just replaced almost all of my running rigging, here is what we found.

1) On our 35-2 we have 3/8 line for the jib sheets. We have one set of older double braid sheets that came with the boat, and a set of modern dyneema cored sheets (it's crazy strong and stretches less than your shrouds). I like knowing I have them laying around in case I need to jimmy rig something when we are out at sea (fingers crossed we won't ever need that). They also don't stretch, so when racing you won't lose as much energy from stretch. If you aren't an intense racer or looking for crazy redundancy, get double braid it's half the price and plenty strong. For the load on your sails, you could go pretty small, but 5/16 is probably the smallest I can go and still be nice to my hands, any less and you will need gloves all the time. If you have self tailing winches, you will want to get a size that fits them.

2) I once sailed on a boat with continuous line sheets, the idea is that you will never loose it "to the wind" you can always grab the strand and wrap a winch and pull. The downside is you have to make sure nobody is stepping on it/getting in the way of it. It was a smaller boat (J24) and it worked really well for racing with only a couple crew. My sheets are all two lines, I prefer it.

3) Rule of thumb is each sheet is about 1.5x boat length. This is more important if you are sailing with really big headsails (150% or bigger) as you want to have enough line for the windward sheet to go from the clew, around the mast and through your block with a couple feet to pull if need be. I liveaboard and am getting Cinderella ready for a pretty intense voyage, so I am walking into Fisheries Supply every other day it seems. They have a "leftovers" rack of line from the ends of the spools. That is where I find my sheets (with the exception of my spinnaker sheets) at nearly half off prices.

4) Line choices - All major brands make a double braid aimed at "cruisers". It is the most cost effective line and it is plenty strong for the loads we see. The line stretches, but not enough to notice unless you are a really finicky racer completely focused on sail shape. The only instance I would say to vary from this is on a spinnaker. We are an electric boat and if the wind doesn't blow, we wait. One issue we would run into is when the wind blows 0-4 kts. The wind isn't strong enough to keep the sails open and powered up. I noticed a massive gain by purchasing lightweight line that doesn't absorb water. The sheets no longer weighed down the spinnaker clews and collapsed the sail. We could still make 2 kts or so of headway downwind with our chute, conditions where we used to sit there bobbing up and down luffing sails (the line I went to was 1/4 the weight of the old sheets). They were pricey, but we also race/sail in the Puget Sound in the summer where these conditions frequently exist.

My advice, wander into you local boating store and find their "leftovers" rack 30-40' lengths of line should be easy to find at almost half off. You may not find matching sheets, but that probably better anyway when you are shouting "pull the red line".

-P
 
Christian Williams

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
If you use a whisker pole with a big genoa, measure for sheets to accommodate dead downwind with full genny out.

(I have found that a 100' tape measure is a boating accessory that pays for itself many times over.)
 
toddster

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Glyn Judson said:
Parker, Toddster speaks with great authority on this site and is in the ball park when suggesting 3/8" line. I might be tempted to go even smaller and consider 5/16" line. Certainly 1/2" is waaaay overkill. I went to the Barton Marine web site out of curiosity and they suggest 8 to 10mm for their smallest wincher which is probably what will fit your Barlow 15's. Let us know the outcome, Glyn
Click to expand...
Hah! My authority extends about as far as the mistakes I've already made. Sometimes more than once.

I've just upsized my reefing lines to 5/16 from 1/4. Hopefully this will be easier on the hands, but we'll see. The topping lift on my boat appears to be 1/8" dyneema or the like. Plenty strong enough for the job, but really difficult to handle.

Oh, one other thing that might constrain line diameter is any rope clutches that you might have. The specified range for Lewmar clutches is pretty narrow.

And a more advanced option (or so I hear) is to use "tapered" lines, such that the flying part of the line is smaller and lighter than the end that you handle. My understanding is that this is accomplished either by removing the core from the flying end, or splicing a heavier line to the handled end. But I haven't make that mistake yet, so I don't know.
 
bgary

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
toddster said:
removing the core from the flying end, or splicing a heavier line to the handled end.
Click to expand...

...or by snaking the handled end of a light/low-stretch sheet into a "cover" and lock-stitching it in place. The "core" carries the load from end to end, the cover just makes it easy on the hands.

I did my spinnaker sheets that way, super-light from the block to the sail, but with a smooth/tapered transition to a full-size sheet where it goes around a winch.
 
olsenjohn

olsenjohn

John Olsen
Blogs Author
bgary said:
Bruce's Opinion (tm, patent pending, void where prohibited by law...)
-- yes, 1/2" is overkill for the loads on that size of boat, but "nice on the hands" is super important for jibsheets because you handle them so much. I wouldn't go smaller than 3/8" (10mm), and I'd look for line with a "soft hand". I'm using 10mm "Globe 5000" for jibsheets on my E32-III, and like it a lot.
Bruce
Click to expand...

I would strongly echo the "nice on hands" from Bruce. Not sure if you are using winches or not, but I sail and race lot with just jam cleats on a 19' boat for both the main and jib. And I use 1/2" soft fuzzy line which of course is WAY overkill for a 90 sqft jib and 125 sqft main. But when the wind pipes up to 10-15 knots it is almost a necessity in my opinion. I sure wouldn't want to trim in or ease out either by hand alone with a 1/4" line, a 3/8" soft and fuzzy would be a minimum for me.

The only drawback to the heavier line is in very light air with a heavier pull to center on the boom and jib clew from the larger line. For the boom though I just re rig the main-sheet through the blocks to just a 2 to 1 ratio, and that takes care of the pull to center in light air. Just remember to put it back to 4 to 1 when the wind picks up or you get a real muscle workout!

Just my two cents! :)
 
P

pheiner

New Member
Update on the sheets, plus Barton Winchers

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I have an update on my setup:
- Went with 3/8" Sta-Set from DynamicSailor because of the price. 2x 40' lengths, one red flecked and one green flecked. Sailed once with them, and I didn't find them too much harder on the hands than the previous oversized 1/2" sheets
- Got the Small Barton Winchers--they do not work with the Barlow 15s. They are just too big to fit the drum, and way to big to fit securely over the top of the winch. I knew there was a problem when they went on too easily. :) So, they'll be returning to the store. And if I can find self-tailing winches at a decent price, I'll probably be looking to upgrade. Any recommendations beyond eBay?
 
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Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Where to find used winches.

Parker, I've had tremendous success over the years, no make that decades, calling consignment chandlers across the US and Canada by visiting the Good Old Boat Magazine Consignment Stores list: http://www.goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/consignment_stores.php Print out the pages and sit down with pen in hand and start calling. Eventually you'll find what you need but look around and ask others first as to what size winches you want/need, then you'll sound like a pro on the phone. I'm only familiar with Barlow winches and can tell you that their #16 single speed winch would probably suit you well at an affordable price and I'd bet the winchers will fit that size (check first). Others make similar ones and even self sailing models so do your homework. I had to replace my single speed standard Barlow #23's years ago and found a used 2-speed, self tailing pair in Rhode Island at a bargain basement price including shipping out here to SoCal. I had them shoot me a digital photo of them and that's all I needed. They're out there, you just have to look and it can turn into an adventure tracking down just what you want. Best of luck, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
 
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