M-18 rear main seal failed on Ericson 30+, looking for advice

[light24bulbs]

Some of you may remember me as the fellow who recently bought a nice looking Ericson 30+ 1984 in Seattle and had 20 questions about it. Here's two more:

On the way to the yard for haul out, it started leaking about 1-2 shot glasses of oil an hour from the rear main seal.
Has anyone had this repair done to their m-18 and could maybe give me an idea of a reasonable cost. Seattle (not my home city) is often stupidly expensive and I have a hard time telling if I'm paying boat prices or sucker prices. They have to pull the motor for this and I suspect that may even involve taking part of the galley sink cabinet apart to get the motor out. Is that right?

This motor has I think around 8000 hours total time and exactly 2000 since rebuild. That's a lot. Below this point I start asking about repowering instead, and if you think I am being naive in talking about that, just skip reading below and call me out.

Would any of you be considering simply taking the plunge on repowering with a beta marine 16hp or what-have-you? The folks that do that around here are over in Port Townsend which is not impossibly far even with the oil leak and the motors don't even seem that pricey at a little under 3k (which I think includes the transmission), although I'm sure it's the labor and custom mounting/adaption that gets you in the end. The current motor is still strong and starts up straight away. Compession appears perfect although I haven't checked. As far as I can tell, there's not much really "better" about the beta motor technology wise, especially given that it is a low pressure injection / not common rail, very traditional diesel tractor motor. It simply would have less hours and that means less future, expensive problems in my mind. Might even be able to avoid the god-awful emissions stuff like a DPF, not sure.

It's pretty high current where I sail in the San Juans, often 3 knots average on a passage, going on 5 or 6 knots in the tight spots. Going from 40 year old motor that probably doesn't still quite make 14hp to a solid 16hp or even the three-cylinder 20hp would probably not be regretted. I have very little time on my new boat so I'm open to advice by those who know this boat and motor better than me.

PS. Why the motor only started to leak under way and not during prepurchase inspection, or during the hour or so of running in gear while I replaced the impeller, zinc, cleaned heat exchanger, changed all filters, and replaced half the hoses, but there you go. To think I could have had all that done with the engine OUT...sigh

 

[Loren Beach]

I do not know how much HP is optimal for your model, but we are still super pleased with our Betamarine25 replacement in our O-34. I have a number of blog entries on the site about it.
At a reported 9K displacement for your model, I would probably want the Betamarine 16 or 20. It all depends on how much room you have in the engine bay. Keep us posted on your decision.

I note that one site with an OEM brochure states that your M-18 model is rated at 16 HP, displacing 34.8 CI.
For comparison a new Betamarine 16 puts out 16 HP, and displaces 37 CI. That would be more power than you have now.

It really gets down to the cost of a rebuild vs cost of a new drivetrain.
All the best,
Loren

 

[bigd14]

The 30+ stock engine is underpowered in my opinion. If you are going to replace it I would upsize.

One does not need to remove cabinetry to extract the engine.

E30-3 - 1984 E30+ Strut Replacement Part 3

After removing the strut, I found an exact replacement at Marine Hardware in Redmond WA. They apparently obtained the patterns from Ericson back in the day. The new manganese bronze strut with bearing cost $635 and took them about 6 weeks to...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[light24bulbs]

Thank you both.

We've immediately jumped into talking about repower so I assume I wasn't being crazy in thinking that might be a smart move worth considering as opposed to continued repairs. I will have to compare quotes and I will come back here once I do. Or perhaps it's simply the more interesting topic.

I'm not a fan of all the modern overpowered sailboats, but my area is known for high current and light wind. Perhaps we can discuss the 16hp vs 20hp decision later. The m18 supplies 14, not 16, although there does seem to be confusion about it often. I wouldn't be surprised if the 16hp beta is the just the right fit without going overboard, unless others disagree.

The boat is currently fitted with a very nice max-prop and I would not want to re-prop, that thing costs money.

Thank you for the information about the cabinet clearance, good news.

 

[Loren Beach]

The boat is currently fitted with a very nice max-prop and I would not want to re-prop, that thing costs money.

Since you can change the pitch on the "Max" there would not be a reason to re-prop. FWIW, if the transmission ratio is the same or really close on a new drive train, you would likely not have to even change that at all.
I have a fixed prop, and the our new Beta was nearly identical in trans ratio compared to the old Universal and our prop still drives the boat to the same speeds at the same rpm.

 

[Frank Langer]

Our 1984 E30+ came with the larger Universal 5416 engine, almost identical to the M20, and has 16 hp. So it's a bit more powerful than your M18.
We have sailed in the San Juan islands several times, as well as lots in our BC Gulf Islands and further north up the Strait of Georgia in lots of different wind, current and wave conditions during our 16 years with this boat.
I would definitely not want less power, and if we made a change at some point I would opt for a 20hp engine.
Along with where you sail, the type of sailing you do is a consideration. I sometimes single hand sail in 20 - 25 knot wind, 2 to 3 foot or more waves. At times in these conditions especially if the wind is almost "on the nose", I've had to use motor sailing as neither sails nor motor alone were enough, especially in a narrow channel where tacking options were limited. But if you generally avoid those conditions, that's less of a consideration.
Frank

 

[light24bulbs]

Our 1984 E30+ came with the larger Universal 5416 engine, almost identical to the M20, and has 16 hp. So it's a bit more powerful than your M18.
We have sailed in the San Juan islands several times, as well as lots in our BC Gulf Islands and further north up the Strait of Georgia in lots of different wind, current and wave conditions during our 16 years with this boat.
I would definitely not want less power, and if we made a change at some point I would opt for a 20hp engine.
Along with where you sail, the type of sailing you do is a consideration. I sometimes single hand sail in 20 - 25 knot wind, 2 to 3 foot or more waves. At times in these conditions especially if the wind is almost "on the nose", I've had to use motor sailing as neither sails nor motor alone were enough, especially in a narrow channel where tacking options were limited. But if you generally avoid those conditions, that's less of a consideration.
Frank

Ah look at that, someone in my same neck of the woods with my same boat, straight from the horses mouth. I'm a fair weather sailor (so far) but I appreciate knowing what you would go with, it's surely better than any opinion I can form. Alright, I'll ask about the three cylinder if I go down this road.

Nobody has told me if I'm crazy for wanting to replace this old motor that only needs a new main rear seal. I figured that would be the first response.

 

[Frank Langer]

A new engine will be expensive, both for the initial cost and then the labour for installation, unless you can do alot of that work yourself. If you plan to keep this boat long term, that may be a good option.
But these engines were built strong for use on tractors, and they are relatively simple to work on, and 2,000 hours since rebuild doesn't sound like alot to me, especially if the engine is starting and running well as you say. Therefore, before investigating a new engine, I would get some estimates for cost of replacing the rear seal. I would also want accurate info on what was done when it was rebuilt, and discuss with a mechanic if there are other significant repairs that weren't covered in the rebuild, but could arise in the foreseeable future.
There are few repairs as significant as rebuilding or replacing the engine, though there are some.
Frank

 

[Loren Beach]

Nobody has told me if I'm crazy for wanting to replace this old motor that only needs a new main rear seal. I figured that would be the first response.

Having replaced a 2300 hour running (albeit with some developing expensive problems) engine, I may not be the right person to offer you advice... !
If you read the litany of looming problems I would have had to solve to keep our old engine, and the estimated cost, note that I justified my solution. Key word is "my" solution.
I do stand by the logic that a rebuild *will* involve costs that may not be apparent when one starts in. Ironic thought: one of my oil leaks was probably from a rear main seal, also.
You are receiving a LOT of really thoughtful advice, and I wish you well.

One of my blog entries with the rough financial info added.

O34 - Engine Replacement, Olson 34

This February we started the process of changing to a new diesel engine. While local trusted mechanics agree that most any middle-age diesel can be maintained or rebuilt to run indefinitely, there are practical reasons for replacement. Aside: a...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Alan Gomes]

Since you can change the pitch on the "Max" there would not be a reason to re-prop. FWIW, if the transmission ratio is the same or really close on a new drive train, you would likely not have to even change that at all.
I have a fixed prop, and the our new Beta was nearly identical in trans ratio compared to the old Universal and our prop still drives the boat to the same speeds at the same rpm.

This would also depend upon how much horsepower the replacement engine generates vs. the old one.

 

[Nick J]

I wouldn't feel bad about repowering in your situation. 8k total and 2k on the rebuild with another rebuild pending, I'd say the engine has put in it's time and is ready to move on. If you're going through the effort to remove it, you're already half way invested in the work required to repower anyway. Having an engine you can rely on and is easy to maintain (Beta excels in this more than any other option) will be worth it in the long run. Good luck with your decision!

 

[G Kiba]

Having replaced a 2300 hour running (albeit with some developing expensive problems) engine, I may not be the right person to offer you advice... !
If you read the litany of looming problems I would have had to solve to keep our old engine, and the estimated cost, note that I justified my solution. Key word is "my" solution.
I do stand by the logic that a rebuild *will* involve costs that may not be apparent when one starts in. Ironic thought: one of my oil leaks was probably from a rear main seal, also.
You are receiving a LOT of really thoughtful advice, and I wish you well.

Your response led me to search the question of what is a tractor engine's life in hours. While this has nothing to do with reasons to replace an engine, I find it fascinating.

 

[light24bulbs]

Your response led me to search the question of what is a tractor engine's life in hours. While this has nothing to do with reasons to replace an engine, I find it fascinating.

View attachment 45426

Yeah well to make things more confusing there's the rebuild in there. Previous owner couldn't remember when it was done but it could have been as high as 7000 hours which would make it REALLY old at 9000 hours with 2000 since rebuild.

Thanks everyone, glad I'm not far from the mark. I've gotten some extremely good help here, big thanks to all of you for transferring some of that boat wisdom to a me and my first inboard-powered boat.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

In the course of our strut rebedding we had a mechanic remove and reinstall the engine. Just that cost us about $6K, no parts or maintenance. I've wondered since if we should have repowered. I'll be interested in hearing what prices you end up to work with. Just for reference, we're in New England. Anyway, it doesn't sound crazy to me. (Though some people might caution you to not use me as a reference point for sanity.)

 

[Christian Williams]

This is a money decision. You'll need estimates for fixing what you've got, and for installing a new engine.

If you contemplate moving up to a larger boat within a few years, I'd lean toward fix. A new engine is an expense not reflected in retail value (few upgrades are, although they make strong selling points). For some or many of us, our present boat is our last boat. That justifies anything.

 

[light24bulbs]

This is a money decision. You'll need estimates for fixing what you've got, and for installing a new engine.

If you contemplate moving up to a larger boat within a few years, I'd lean toward fix. A new engine is an expense not reflected in retail value (few upgrades are, although they make strong selling points). For some or many of us, our present boat is our last boat. That justifies anything.

Thank you for your input, Mr. Williams!

I was discussing it with my mom today and when I suggested that this might be my forever-boat, she simply rolled her eyes and said she'd bet me $50 that I'll have a different one in five years, no matter how much respect I have for this one. I have to admit that she's probably right.

Thank you for the perspective.

 

[jtsai]

Yeah well to make things more confusing there's the rebuild in there. Previous owner couldn't remember when it was done but it could have been as high as 7000 hours which would make it REALLY old at 9000 hours with 2000 since rebuild.

I am puzzled how a 1984 boat can accumulate that many engine hours? A friend of mine has traveled south to FL via ICW then to the Bahamas back 6 times and his engine has less than 4,000 hours. He also sails just about every weekends.

 

[Christian Williams]

Engine Use Poll

My '84 ERicson 381 has about 2200 hours, according to the previous owner's immaculate records. He changed hour meters (Hobbs meter) a while back, so the new instrument reads about 400. (Hour meters are just clocks, and they typically fail and need to be replaced at some point). Perhaps here we...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[light24bulbs]

I am puzzled how a 1984 boat can accumulate that many engine hours? A friend of mine has traveled south to FL via ICW then to the Bahamas back 6 times and his engine has less than 4,000 hours. He also sails just about every weekends.

I don't know, I agree it seems excessive. It seems more in line with continuous live aboard cruising, which the boat was never used for.

That said, I think the previous owner used the boat a lot. He bought it when he was 30 and he sold it when he was 69. For that many hours of use, everything on the boat is in seemingly good shape.

Maybe he was wrong about the number of hours when it was rebuilt, he seemed hazy on it, but it doesn't sound too far off given that it has had 2,000 since then and that was maybe done around the turn of the century.

 

[Christian Williams]

Is it possible to talk to the PO some more about engine hours? As the original owner, he might have an unusual story about the accumulated hours--like commuting by sailboat? It would have to be an unusual story, because to build up 8,000 engine hours in 50 years means running the engine for an hour every other day.

1 year, 180 days=180 hours.
10 years 1800 hours.
50 years, 8,500 hours.

Credible? Anyhow, a confident guess as to engine time bears on whether fix or replace.