Keel Bolt Design (and Repair)

[John Butler]

My bilge always has water in it (greasy and smelly water!), but then I have never tried to dry it out since we launched this spring. Our boat was on the hard when we bought her this winter and I remember noticing the seam between the keel and the hull. This thread is making me nervous. Should I dry the bilge out while at the dock and see where the water is coming in from? I don't usually hear the bilge pump running while at the dock, but it is very quiet. Should I have the keel pulled this winter? I guess I'll at least ask the PO if he ever had that done.

John
1982 E38 Red Rover

 

[Loren Beach]

How long? Good question....

1982 to 2006... That's about 24 years for "Rover" (but only 3.4 dog years!).

Given that our 1988 boat also showed evidence of a lack of removal of mold-release wax and subsequent water seepage when we had the keel dropped and rebedded, I would guess that this is likely to be your situation, also.

We had water seeping in around one bolt from the time we bought the boat used in '94. The keel was dropped at a scheduled haulout in Oct. 2000.
We got lucky -- all the SS bolt threads were OK and had only surface rust stains on several of them.

Rebedded with adhesive sealant, and all nuts torqued up with a long bar. Bone dry since.
After talking this over with a surveyor and the yard owners, I am still of the opinion that rebedding a keel should be on a preventative maintenance timetable just like renewing the standing rigging and other long term/long range scheduled maint. To pull a number out the air (and I admit that it is easier for me to think in terms of "round numbers") I would pick "20 years" as a good time to drop the keel and rudder for a rebedding and a checkup, whether they look like they need it or not.

After all, we guys all go in for a regular PSA test rather than waiting for advanced cancer symtoms to appear, right?

Here are a couple of copies of lo-rez photos I was given by the yard that show the keel in the steel "craddle" and the sealant being spread, and just after the bolts were tightened up with the adhesive oozing out.

I hope this added trivia is slightly helpful to others contemplating this work.

Best wishes,
Loren in PDX

ps: the choice of 304 or 316 alloy for "keel bolts" (threaded rod, actually) probably had everything to do with tensile strength and not cost per pound, per se.

 

[Sean Engle]

I dry the bilge out while at the dock and see where the water is coming in from? I don't usually hear the bilge pump running while at the dock, but it is very quiet. Should I have the keel pulled this winter?

I would (clean/dry the bilge) - and I did. My bilge was always wet as well. Once I dried it out (and cleaned it out - wet bilges are a source of odor, you know...), and there was not any rain, I could tell the culprit was the stuffing box (letting in salt water).

Once that was re-packed - the only other source was the mast - fresh water (which, seems less harmful to me).

This thread should not make you nervous, John - but you should get some comfort knowing exactly where water is coming from, what it means, and what damage it might (or might not) be doing to your boat... Your hull/keel joint might be fine - but you won't know for sure unless you do some homework...

My $0.02....

//sse

 

[e38 owner]

Leaks after Sailing

I used to find water in the bilge after going sailing.
the Bilge is now dry. The culpret was a leaky thru hull
The water would collect in a pocket in the tri axle grid and run to the bilge when the boat heeled.

 

[Steve]

Agree

Don't assume the worse, but rather be proactive regarding prudent maintenance with the boat's age. Like Sean, our bilge is dry except after the drip-drip-drip of rain water down the mast, a seal that I'm not sure can really be done. After we installed a drip-less shaft seal, no more salt water.. any salt water needs to be investigated for the specific source.

The Ericson owners manual does address the small area of aft and forward keel joint that they indicate may at times need fairing due to "normal use".

Steve
e35-3#156

 

[Frank Langer]

More concerns about keel/hull joint

In response to one of the above posts (Ted's), yes, I did taste the water in the bilge, just a bit on my fingertip, to determine if it was salt water or freshwater, as the problem/solution would be different depending on outcome (but I generally keep the bilge quite clean, so it wasn't as bad as it may sound )

I think the drip from the stuffing box is another potential source on many boats--easily corrected by adjusting it to drip a bit less. But I have a dripless seal, so I know that isn't the cause of bilge water in my boat.

I am still puzzled as to why my bilge is dry when the boat has been sitting at the dock, but has that cup of water in it after an afternoon of brisk sailing--my best guess is that the movement of the keel under the stress of sailing allows some water into the joint. However, I would think that a 4,000 pound keel hanging in the water at the dock would also allow at least some water in. I know that the dryness isn't coming from the bilge pump pumping it out before I get there, as the switch level would leave about an inch of water in the bilge, but it is totally dry when at dock.

I have also checked as many of the other seacocks/hoses as I can find for any leakage, and so far can't find any that would explain the water in the bilge. However, if there is anywhere else on the engine that could be leaking that I could check, please let me know, as that might explain the water in the bilge while away from the dock. The hoses and exhaust were replaced within the past five years, so I don't think it's something like the exhaust elbow.

Any additional ideas? Also, if it is leaking at the keel/hull joint, what do you all think about simply recaulking the seam (with 4200 or 5200), vs. reinforcing with fibreglass cloth/fairing vs. dropping/rebedding the keel. Obviously, rebedding is the best option, but how would you decide which of the above you would do under what circumstances (aside from the very real budget factor).

This is a very helpful thread (as usual) --thanks for your replies.

Frank.

 

[Steve]

Just a thought..those grids are mysterious water savers

Frank-- just a thought, check the exhaust hose fittings, although new they may have come slightly loose due to normal break-in and are running a small bit of exhaust water into an area you don't notice, especially where it goes through the last aft hull fitting. It may find an area to run under into the grid, then when you heel it moves into the bilge, thus none at the dock at rest or when you run the engine level. Put some paper towels or sponges at the hull joint aft of the lift and see. Is the water discolored?

Steve

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of that and will check those hoses. The bilge water is quite clean, doesn't smell of exhaust, isn't oily, so it may not be that, but I'll check just to be sure. And your suggestion may also help someone else who is having the same issues.
Thanks again!
Frank.

 

[Shadowfax]

Could it be fresh water from your water tank? While out sailing you may go over far enought to allow some to escape the tank at a hose fitting. Just a guess

 

[Frank Langer]

Paul, thanks for your reply and suggestion. As part of my problem-solving on this, I tasted a small amount of water in the bilge to see if it was freshwater or saltwater, and it is salt water; so not from the water tanks. But your suggestion may help someone who is leaking freshwater. I actually discovered that the porthole opening on my starboard locker water tank would begin to leak when I overfilled it (first time when the boat was new to me), even though it has one of those little silicone-like gasket rings in the lid, it still leaked around the edges (I recaulked the edges, so now it's dry there, but may be a new fix for others).
Thanks again for your reply. I think I am pretty much left with two possibilities: it's either leaking through an as yet undiscovered hose/seacock leak, or it's leaking through the keel/hull joint when it flexes under sail (though I still can't understand how it would let water in then, but not when the full weight of the keel is still on it at the dock). I would like to rule out the keel/hull joint, because of the bilge being dry when at the dock--do you all think this is too optimistic?
Frank.

 

[treilley]

Check the raw water pump. They can leak at the seal only when the engine is run. Mine does this and is due for a replacement. Another winter project.

 

[Sean Engle]

Could it be fresh water from your water tank? While out sailing you may go over far enought to allow some to escape the tank at a hose fitting. Just a guess

Yeah, my bow tank did that also (when we were heeling)... The original inlet began leaking and had to be replaced...

//sse

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

There was some talk of electrolosis concerns and marinas being a big source of stray grounds. It is my practice now to only plug my boat in when I need to top off the batteries. Once that is done, typically overnight, I disconnect the shore power entirely. Even though you may shut the breakers off the ground wire is still connected if you are plugged in. A decent 12 volt system does not need to be constantly trickle charged and should be fine for months unplugged, even if your bilge pump cycles once in a while. Last season I noticed how fast the heat exchanger zincs were going from keeping the boat plugged in. Its much better this year.

 

[Frank Langer]

Ted, are you suggesting that electrolysis and faster corrosion of the zincs occurs faster even on a boat that's properly wired, when it's plugged in all the time? Anyone else have knowledge of this?
As I'm a long way from my boat, I keep it plugged in all the time to keep the batteries charged between sailing trips--are you suggesting it would be better to unplug, and only plug in a few days before each trip?

Frank.

 

[John Butler]

Frank,

If you are leaving your boat plugged in continuously, you probably should install a galvanic isolator (if you don't already have one). Check out this thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=2918

John

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Galvanic isolator is definately the way to go, but good ones are not cheap and if you can do with out being constantly "On the Grid" I think its a better way to go. Being plugged in even with all the best safety equipment is still connecting your boat to a high powered source of electricity. The galvanic isolator will prevent the electrolosis for sure, but there is always a risk of fire in my opinion. If you need to leave the boat for long periods you may need to leave it plugged in, but I bet if you did a load analysis and had a decent size battery bank you may find that you dont take the batteries to or below 50% by leaving it unplugged. If your bilge pump draws 10amps when running, and runs 5 minutes per day I think thats .833 amp hours per day. In 30 days you would use 25 amp hours. I have a 200amp hour bank which gives me just about 100 amp hours of useable juice. That being said I should be able to leave my boat for 4 months with and only hit 50%. There are several assumptions here that may not hold true in all cases but the point I think can be made that you should not need to leave your boat plugged in. Sorry but I think we may need to move this to a new thread.

 

[stbdtack]

Tim, the aft keelbolt on my 38 was the same as you describe. The deep V made it hard to get a flat surface for a washer. I simply taped off the bolt and poured epoxy mixed with chopped glass into the space. This gave a flat surface for the washer and brought the level up to the limber hole so any water would actually drain down instead of collecting in the deep pocket.

 

[Cory B]

Aft Bolt

We did something similar with the aft bolt. We built up a flat spot with epoxy to tighten down the nut on. Although a guy in the yard did suggest just cutting it off and letting epoxy do its thing. In any case, I don't think the original method of holding in the aft bolt works very well, and I strongly suspect that we were leaking water there.

Cory Bolton

 

[doubleVision]

glassing/fairing worthwhile?

Ted - I'm curious how your repair a couple years ago worked out? I'm in the same boat now with my '87 38-200 and am wondering if it's worth the effort & expense to avoid having to rebed the keel now.

Thanks,
Dave

<snip>

My 38 had a cracked seam there near the bow. The keel will need rebediing but like others have mentioned its too expensive to do this year. I think it was weeping a little around the fwd bolt but this spring I glassed the joint up with 24oz biaxial cloth and faired it back. I will see this fall if it held when I haul out fo rthe winter. My plan is to save the money and do the cabin sole and rebedding in the same project as getting to several bolts on my boat is not possible right now.

</snip>

 

[bfaatz]

Fiberglass Keel Repair

I've been struggling with the question of dropping the keel on my E38 for a few years now, and this thread is extremely helpful. Thanks everyone for all this information. Now I'd appreciate your thoughts on another twist.

Back in 1999 I hauled the boat and saw the leaking hull/keel seam some of you have described. On the yard's recomendation, I had them glass the keel to the hull all the way around. Since then the joint has maintained integrity. The bolts look great from the top, but of course the bilge always has standing water in it. Now that the joint is repaired, it's mostly rain water.

It sounds like I'm going to need to drop my keel sooner or later anyway, but I'm wondering how much support that fiberglass repair is providing. I don't think it's something to rely on for a long time, but at least it's showing me that the keel is stable. If the keel moved, I would see cracks. Has anyone had a similar repair done?

Thanks,

Brandt
S/V Priya, Seattle