Is there an argument against storm trysails?

[Christian Williams]

There is an argument against storm jibs, storm trysails, short stays and all of it, which I think always ought to be part of the conversation.

In my (limited) experience, shorthanded crews will have trouble rigging any of it.

If you can sail, reefed sails work well. In a real storm, sailing stops and survival commences--probably running off dead downwind with a series drogue.

It is exceptionally hard to rig and control any sails in a gale. A passing front may appear with 40 knots and little notice, and digging out a storm trysail will be problematic.

In Force 10 with big seas and a crew of nine on deck, we had a difficult time rigging a storm trysail. It took hours, at night. And the guys were supermen.

It can be argued that a cruising boat should stick with easy rig. Sails will likely be furled in survival conditions, or a scrap of jib or very deep mainsail reef.

Skip Novak is persuasive on the topic, at least to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P66FPQhRwy8

 

[Jason G]

There is no denying skips experience and knowledge. I will be ordering a new mainsail soon and will talk with the loft about adding a third reef to it. I already have a 90 high cut yankee which I'd like to add a foam luff to and some reinforcements added for furling. What is the consensus on the later 32,34,35,& 38 hulls ability to effectively heave to or hove to in big seas or a strong wind?

I have not been out in anything above 25kts yet and with the tired bagged out main on its second reef and the 120 slightly reefed up front it was hours of fun zipping around the puget sound. I didn't even consider practicing any storm techniques at the time. The boat was nice and light on the helm and only briefly pushed to 30deg heel in puffs to see what it was like.


Jason

 

[Christian Williams]

There are so many factors--wind, sea, cross seas, water depth, and so on--that I think every tactic has its place, and we may have to try them all to fit our boat to the precise situation.

I recently bought HANDLING STORMS AT SEA: The 5 Secrets of Heavy Weather Sailing by Hal Roth Hardcover $22.19 which I found to be a really good summation of techniques.

And in looking up the title I typed my own name, and instantly was delivered this story of Roth visiting in Annapolis, written by me in 1979. Ain't the new Internet grand....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...he-mast/3731b904-6e90-49fc-a4a8-fdcc7ce4e2e7/

 

[Jeff Asbury]

In Force 10 with big seas and a crew of nine on deck, we had a difficult time rigging a storm trysail. It tooks hours, at night. And the guys were supermen.

I remember reading some where that trying to rig a storm trysail in as gale is a lot like trying to change a tire on a big rig truck going down the freeway at 60 miles an hour.

 

[Joliba]

storm sailing thoughts

I have never sailed in "survival" conditions. It would be unusual these days, with all of the weather forecasting tools, as well as old fashioned watch keeping, to be hit suddenly, without warning, by huge seas and storm winds. Of course, no one can rig a trysail (or probably even reef) short handed in the thick of those conditions. A cruising boat properly rigged with a trysail keeps it stowed in a cover at the mast base on its dedicated track with a dedicated halyard standing-by. Just as with reefing during short handed sailing, the trysail needs to be deployed early, BEFORE the worst conditions.
Many great books by very experienced sailors are available and should be required reading for anyone headed where heavy weather is possible. K. Adlard Cole's classic, Heavy Weather Sailing, was one of the first to compile storm experiences and recommendations. Many subsequent volumes including Hal Roth's discuss this topic sensibly. I recently have changed my thinking after reading Larry and Lin Pardey's book, Storm Tactics. They make a very cogent argument for heaving to, with a proper drogue on a bridle in any gale. They speak against running off with drogues. All of these books also discuss the other preparations for heavy weather including food, clothing, communication, stowage, etc.
What is clear, as Christian noted, is that the best tactic is dependent upon the boat, the crew, and all of the factors unique to each situation. I think it is incumbent upon someone heading offshore to have options in their armamentarium, and to have practiced their "Plan A" in at least moderately heavy conditions, to be fully prepared to execute the plan in a real gale.
For my own sailing on Lake Michigan, I use a triple reefed main and a storm jib. Occasionally, I have been out in 35+ knot sustained winds, and a few times in gustier thunderstorm squall lines. But when a true gale blows on the lake, there is almost always adequate warning to remain in port or get to a safe harbor. So, I have no need to prepare for extended survival conditions here. Racers here tend to get into more trouble than cruisers because they push harder and sometimes remain out when it is no longer prudent. I've spent many years racing and know the temptations. There are many days that I could not sail comfortably, even while daysailing, without my 3rd reef.
Mike Jacker

 

[bgary]

Just My Humble Opinion (tm)

I think it is incumbent upon someone heading offshore to have options in their armamentarium

IMO, this is the key - a well-prepared offshore sailor has thought through the possibilities he/she might encounter, and has a plan-A, a plan-B and more. If when the situation occurs, no matter what it is (sudden squall, unavoidable front, engine dies, rig fails, whatever), the best option is picked from the catalog of pre-considered options and put into play.... with the others kept handy as backups.

Hesitating to sound judgmental, but... if an offshore sailor finds himself "needing" to rig storm sails in survival conditions, it's probably because he's ignored all the clues that would have allowed him to take proacctive measures, and resultingly has put himself in a position where most of the "good" options are no longer available. That's a good position to avoid, if at all possible.

 

[Christian Williams]

Agree.

As I think through it, sudden heavy weather offshore is pretty common. A mere front or fair-weather gradient can bring 40 knots for days.

Gales we see on the synopic charts, and can try to avoid. That may mean trying to get away, or putting out a sea anchor to stop process toward the gale.

Hurricanes, which unfortunately are now more of an issue in the north Pacific, present a further issue. If they aim toward you, at 10-15 knots, it is advisable to get out of the way, or at least head for the so-called navigable sector of the hurricane.

In such cases, we are faced with sailing as fast as we can in deteriorating conditions, rather than batten down the hatches.

Modern forecasting is a boon. On any long passage in the future, I will have a personal forecaster standing by via sat phone for access to the latest data, which is often hard to receive or interpret while getting your brains knocked out on a small boat.

But of course, none of this is likely with a harbor of refuge nearby.

 

[ignacio]

Heave-to with a sea anchor

I recently have changed my thinking after reading Larry and Lin Pardey's book, Storm Tactics. They make a very cogent argument for heaving to, with a proper drogue on a bridle in any gale. They speak against running off with drogues.

My thinking changed as well after reading Storm Tactics, but as of yet have not tested their heave-to/sea anchor technique. I do know that both my E27 and now E35-II both like to continue making forward progress when I heave-to with a backwinded jib in 25 knots, gusting to 30, and she seems to lay at too-great an angle to wind and waves...not good qualities according to the Pardeys, but maybe I just need to practice this more. Have not tried heaving-to with a sea anchor yet, though have the gear for it.

Anyone try this yet in heavy seas? Might just be time to try this.

 

[Ryan L]

My thoughts

We just completed a difficult four day upwind passage from the Tuamotu atolls to the Marquesas Islands. We were close reaching nearly the entire time and regularly experienced sustained wind speeds over 30 knots with relatively large swells almost on our nose (open ocean trade wind swells). There were many squalls day and night with strong gusts and sudden wind shifts over 50 degrees common. Basically we got hammered for a week, it was amazing, and we learned a lot.

We have a very deep reef in our main but by far the sail combination that worked best for us most of the time was a storm trysail and an 80% jib on the solent stay. The trysail was much more "adjustable" in terms of shape due to the dual sheets and it was better in terms of heaving to (less leeway, still well balanced, can be made completely flat, etc). It is a bit more work to set up vs reefing the main from the cockpit but we practiced it plenty of times prior so was not a problem.

With the deeply reefed main we were often overpowered. With only an 80% jib we were slow (mid 4 knots) but more comfortable. The trysail gave us at least 1/2 a knot and seemed to help stabilize the boat. These are SOG and were against waves/current so STW was a probably a bit higher but our knotmeter was damaged during the passage so I only have the SOG numbers.

We hove to a number of times in various conditions during this passage and the 10000 miles we sailed since leaving San Diego. It has been our experience that in most conditions our E38-200 heaves to most effectively under deeply reefed main or trysail with no headsail. With a headsail up and backed, even a small storm jib, we were often further off the wind than we liked and had more leeway than under main alone.

We have a sea anchor onboard (http://www.para-anchor.com/). It is extremely well made, packs small, and while we've never needed it yet we're glad to have it onboard. We've never used it in rough conditions but we practiced with it in 15 or so knots and choppy seas where it was remarkably effective at holding us in the "perfect" hove-to position per the Pardey "Storm Tactic" book. The main difference between heaving to under sails alone vs sea anchor in our experience is the position of the slick created by the boat sliding sideways. Under sails alone there is still some forward movement so the slick is mainly from midships towards the quarter while with the sea anchor it is truly off our beam, a big advantage in storm conditions.

All our sails are made by North Sails. In the interest of full disclosure they are a sponsor of our voyage but please note that we approached them specifically because we wanted the best performing, strongest, most well made sails available. http://www.northsails.com/us/sails

This pic was from the start of the passage before conditions got rough. We were still under reefed main at that point. By the time we switched to trysail there were no other boats around to take pics.

As an interesting side note our passage began at the atoll (the exact motu!) where Thor et al were stranded after the Kon Tiki was wrecked and we finished at Fatu Hiva, the island where Thor first started thinking about his theories on Polynesian migration that eventually led to the Kon Tiki voyage...

 

[Seth]

Reefs vs Trysails

Great discussion, and Skip has more knowledge and experience than most anyone alive. That said, he was not 100% fair in his analysis.
If you are going to carry a Trysail, you not only should have the track for it, but also a 2nd main halyard. Hell, we carry a spare main halyard even on the Mac race, albeit simply as a spare. They do fail sometimes.. Also, when approaching potentially severe weather, and some folks just leave it in place, the Trysail is bagged and stowed at the base of the mast. This way, the time spent digging it out and rigging it is avoided. Also, as already noted, just like you should reef early, if you suspect conditions will worsen that much, just get that main down and raise the Trysail.

On the other side of this discussion, as a recovering sailmaker, the 4th reef idea is not quite as simple either. A mainsail, which is normally made from lighter fabric than a Trysail because it spends most of it's life in 20 knots or less of wind and needs to perform well there, would require the top section to be built of a heavier fabric with heavier corner patches in order to survive and perform when under a 4th reef. This will certainly compromise performance of the sail in more typical conditions, and the sailmaker needs to be very careful to do his/her best to match stretch characteristics so that the sail does not become misshapen due to 2 different fabrics aging and stretching at different rates. This is obviously a trade off, but that is the point. With either option, you pay a price.

Sail safe! Happy New Year!

 

[ignacio]

would require the top section to be built of a heavier fabric with heavier corner patches in order to survive and perform when under a 4th reef.

If one were to add a fourth reef, how would one go about it? Sew on extra Dacron panels over existing ones (on both sides?), with additional layers at the cringles?

 

[Seth]

4th reef

If one were to add a fourth reef, how would one go about it? Sew on extra Dacron panels over existing ones (on both sides?), with additional layers at the cringles?

If adding a 4th reef to an existing mainsail, then yes, the reef patches will be extra heavy and large, but you will be stuck with the base fabric of the mainsail. Before making this decision I would confirm what fabric and weight the sail was made of and ask your sailmaker if he/she feels it is beefy enough for the 4th reef. My comments about 2 different fabrics were more in reference to have a new main built with 4 reefs to begin with. Of course you can just go with a super heavy cloth for the whole sail to begin with, but you won't be too happy in 5-10 knots of breeze..

 

[Navman]

trysail

The latest issue of Good Old Boat has an excellent article on storm trysails and why they should be used in lieu of a deeply reefed main. Its a good read written by Ed Zako who has sailed extensively with his wife.