Inside or outside Track?

[ted_reshetiloff]

Just curious if any of you folks are using the inside genoa tracks for your bigger (>100%) jibs? I have a 150% RF but I use the outside tracks. I generally thought that the inside tracks were for 100% and smaller but I suppose they could be used for the bigger jibs too, you just may get more twist. I guess this post probably should be in the other forum too...

Ted Reshetiloff
1989 E 38-200 Sovereign Nation

 

[u079721]

We used the inside with out 130

Ted we had a 130 for a RF genoa, and we used the inside track. If we were on a broad reach I would often transfer the sheet to the outside track to keep the sail full. When using the inside track it was a bit pinched at times if we were hard on the wind, but to be honest - since we didn't race - that wasn't too often. If furled down to a 100 it was just fine on the inside track even when beating.

I never ran the numbers, but I would be surprised if you could get the right sheeting angle on the outside track without using a barber hauler to bring the sheet inboard.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

By outside track do you mean the track on the toerail? I thought that was only for the spinnaker. I used to have a 150 and now have a 135 and have always used the the inside track. J Boats, for example, don't even have toerail tracks.

 

[clayton]

Tracks

I typically use the inside track for the rf 150%. I would consider the outside track for light air conditions (< 4 knots windspeed) below a close reach just to keep the air moving through the slot. Then again, at that windspeed and angle I would put up the chute. The outside track would also be useful in very heavy air with a smaller jib to keep air flowing through the slot. You've got a surprisingly fast and agile boat, I crewed on a friend's several years ago and it's why we bought an Ericson. We always used the inside track during the Wed night series, and he used it for cruising. Have fun!
Clayton
E32-200

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Thanks

Thanks for the input here. I will probably start using the inside track now. Sheets were run outside when I got the boat and just figured that was normal but it sounds like most folks are using the inside.

Thanks again

Ted Reshetiloff
89' E 38-200 Sovereign Nation

 

[Seth]

Tracks

Steve and the boys are right-for proper upwind performance, you should use the inboard track for all headsails-The outboard track is intended for use when REACHING with a headsail, and as an anchor for the spin sheets (at the very back of the track), and for the afterguys (blocks mounted on a sliding padeye located at max. beam).

If you use the outboard track while sailing upwind, you are losing a significant amount of "height", or pointing ability.

The proper use of it when reaching is: As you begin to ease sheets on a close reach/beam reach, the sail will need a).the lead forward to prevent the top from twisting off excessively (the top of the sail will luff until you get the lead forward). There are times when you would WANT the top to twist off-this is when you are overpowered. In this case ease the sheets without moving the lead forward (of course you would be better off to roll in some sail, then reset the lead so the whole, smaller sail is functioning 100%, and b). the lead outboard to keep the slot open (remember you will also be easing the mainsail as you begin to reach, and if you leave the headsail on the inboard track, the slot will narrow. This will cause excessive backwinding of the mainsail and result in a loss of performance.

So, as you reach off, the lead position should go forward and outboard-progressively more as your sailing angle broadens. Many sailors will take the tail of the active sheet, run it through a snatch block located on the outboard track and about 18-24" forward of the inboard track location, then to the headsail. As you ease the sheets, take this tail to another winch, and trim the sail outboard-at first somewhere between the 2 tracks, and eventually by the time you are on a beam or broader reach, you will be entirely on the outboard lead, and you can untie the end of the sheet that was used for the inboard track. Reverse the process as you head back up to a beat. Pretty trick trick, no? Of course, many sailors use a dedicated "short sheet" for this (sometimes also known as barberhauling),. which is also fine. When cruising I am often too lazy to go get the short sheet, so I just use the tail of the active sheet!

The only time the outboard track may be effective for going upwind would be when using a real storm jib in severe conditions, when inboard sheeting simply overpowers the boat. Of course, height will suffer, but it may be the best bet in extremem conditions.
Fair winds all!
S

 

[windjunkee]

I don't know how your boats are set up, but my 32-2 has the track on the toe rail and then a very short (i.e. about 2 ft.) track screwed into the deck with no backing plate, about a foot inside the toe rail. The old owner told me he added the inside track himself for a stay sail which we don't even have in the sail quiver.

The sail of primary use in So. Cal conditions is our #1 genoa. With the jibcar on the toerail track and our 35 year old blown out sail, we can still strap the sail within inches of the spreaders and groove at about 34 degrees apparent upwind. (we can get it down to about 30-31 degrees apparent if we pinch slightly with windward telltales showing an upward flutter)

With the arrival of our new 155 Ullman Kevlar and the addition of a sailtek hydraulic backstay tensioner, I'm hoping to improve our pointing ability by at least 5 degrees. I'll post our performance results when we get the sail and tensioner.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

 

[windjunkee]

By the way, adding to what Seth offered,

We often use a trick when on a broad reach in fairly light air. We will take the lazy sheet and loop it over the end of the boom behind the outhaul of the main. With the mainsail eased out for the broad reach, the boom is well outboard and we can trim the headsail much more effectively with the jibsheet lead outboard like that.
We call this the "mexican outhaul", appropriately named for where we picked up the idea from light air sailing during La Paz race week. (used in Mariner Class races when whisker poles are not allowed by the local rules).

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

 

[Geoff Johnson]

The primary track on my later model is the "inside track" which is probably 8 feet long and directly in line with the inboard chain plates. I recently got to use my Garhauer EZ-Glide genoa cars on them. They provide amazing conrol over the shape of the genoa from the cockpit.

 

[Seth]

History of yacht design

That title is stolen from a hilarious thread in Sailing Anarchy-but to answer Jim,

The 70's generation of Ericson 32's, 35's etc. relied primarily on the toe rail tracks for their Genoas, and the factory did not normally install an inside track. While it true that with an inboard lead/track, and only in very flat water, the boat can be made to point a couple of degree higher than if only the toerail track was used, this was usually at the expense of some VMG, and most owners just used the outboard track for upwind sailing. This was largely due to the shape of the boat (advanced for its' day) and keel, and 33-35 degrees apparent was about as high as they can go efficiently. In fact, the 35-2 was often seen going upwind with a high clewed Genoa and a genoa staysail set inside (double head rig), and doing so VERY WELL-lower to be sure, but very fast. Not so great around the b uoys with lots of tacks, but on a distance race-magic! On more modern boats, this configuration is limited to close reaching (or beam reaching in bigger breeze when a kite won't fly).

Switch to the newer 38's, 32, 34, 35, 30+, etc, with the deeper fin keels and wider beam and you have boats that easily sail in the 27-29 degree apparent range and benefit greatly from the ability to sheet farther inboard. These boats have full length inboard and outboard tracks as standard as a result.

What I have done when sailing the old 32's and 35's is to use the toe rail track, but use a short sheet with a hook on the end and drag the clew inboard (I would use a windward or cabin top winch) just a bit when upwind in very flat water-to gain just a bit of height. But again because of the hull and keel, do not expect these boats to sail as high as the newer models. They may have similar VMG's, and even get to the top mark at the same time, but will do so at a wider sailing angle.

Cheers again!

S

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Since a picture is worth .... I copied this from the site's splash page:

 

[Seth]

Voila

And there you have it-This is "Doc" Holiday's mighty Aquarius! I did some races with him on this fine yacht! There were times when we would sail around like this-lower, but as fast as many larger yachts, and arrive at the top mark right with the big boys. Ah, the good ol' days...
Fair Winds
S

 

[Martin King]

Doc Holiday and the boys

Seth,
Didn't know you knew Jack Holiday. I sailed aboard Aquarius (such a
70's name) on a few beer can races with my dad as a kid. Jack was
a great helmsman and his crew were awesome to watch. They won
Ensenada one year and a bunch of other stuff as well. That was back
in the days when you could tune up a production boat out of the factory
and be competitive on a working man's salary. I kind of miss that now...sigh

Martin
E31C (with only outboard tracks)

 

[Nick Reynolds]

1973 27' Ericson headsails

It is so cool to have Seth in this forum......

When I bought my boat it came with a 130 and a 150, no other headsails, and with the track on the toerail.

I have been frustrated by my inability to make the boat go to windward with the 150, and Seth's comments make a ton of sense as to why that is. I had been thinking about taking the 150 in and having it looked at, but it is in pretty good shape and sounds like it is just the nature of the beast.

I added a new Banks main and a new banks working jib (about 100%). The sailmaker told me what sheeting angle I should use, and I did the math and decided that the track should be just about on the edge of the cabin top. (I think he said 9 degrees... but I am not sure) That was impractical, and since this is a 30 year old boat I wasn't too concerned about performance, so I mounted it on the deck as close to the cabin sides as I could. It works pretty well, but I have not seen a huge change in my ability to go upwind and the tacking angles. But I also have to run the sail and the sheet between the forward lower and the upper shrouds to sheet it in properly.

So, Seth, do you think I should be able to see a significant improvement to the tacking angle with the new headsail and sheeting arrangement?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Seth]

Sheeting angles

Thanks Nick, for the kind words. Regarding the 150, make absolutely sure you have the lead located correctly on the track so that the top and bottom windward-side telltales "break" at the same time as you head up into the wind from a closed hauled course and trim configuration-and if you are off slightly, err to the side where the top breaks just before the bottom (slightly aft of "ideal". The Genoa should be sheeted to within 1-2" from the spreader tip in roughly 6-12 knots of breeze, maybe 4" in very light air, and "mashed on" in the upper ranges. I can't say exactly what the apparent wind angle will be, but I would think in the mid 30's, with a tacking angle of about 90-93 degrees (although many claim a solid 90).

Regarding the 100% headsail and the tracks, what your sailmaker was not in synch with is the nature of this vintage of boat. If he is on the young side, he was raised around boats that are more modern in shape, and the 9 degree sheeting angle is very typical of todays' boats-but not "yesterdays" boats. So, you are correct to go farther outboard, and your location sounds right. However, you should see a slight improvement in pointing over the Genoa with the little sail if it is truly led correctly. Hopefully the entire leech is ahead of the spreaders, and if you can set the lead as described above, and trim it in so the leech just touches the front of the spreader bar, you should tack in 90 or just under that-provided you have enough wind for the sail to work and the water is reasonably flat.
Hope this helps,
S

 

[Geoff Nelson]

Back to the start of the thread

Ted-

I always use the inside track for both the 135 and 155's I use. For the 155 the fairlead is about 2" from the end of the track, for the 135 it is about 9" from the end. I have another 155 that I was using for the beer cans as it is cut really high and I can see really well under it (because with 100 boats I thought that was more important) but I can't point within 5-10 deg of anyone else with that rag so am going back to the UK tapedrive decksweeper 135 which is smaller but way more fun/less frustrating to trim.

For trim- same as everyone else said though... 2" from the top spreaders to point in 5-10, 4-6" in sub-5kts and hard on in 12+ (and thinking about starting to furl in a bit).

Good luck,

G-

 

[Seth]

a different angle

....And Geoff's post is a perfect example of what we have been talking about: His 381, being of the more modern type boat with a thin, deep keel (as opposed to the fatter, shallower keels of yesteryear), will benefit from tighter sheeting angles and accordingly has the inboard tracks as standard-they are the right tracks to use when sailing upwind on this style of boat-whereas the 27's, 29's, older 32 and 35's, etc. did not have the inboard tracks as standard, and only got marginal results for those who fit them in the field. For those of you with 381's, note that Geoff's locations for the 155 and 135 (2" and 9" from the end respectively), may or may not be the same for you-even if you have the same sized sails. They would only be the same if your clew height was exactly the same-a 135% sail, for example could be a "decksweeper", with the clew right down on the deck, or it could have a very high clew-even 3-4' above the deck. Obviously, the higher the clew, the farther aft the lead position (for a given LP or %). I only say this so that each owner will remember to determine the positions on his/her boat for the sails they have-not someone else's-even if they seem like the same sails-they likely are not. Each individual sailmaker has his/her own ideas of what the ideal clew height is for a given sail, so that (3) 135% genoas for a 381 may well all be quite different...have I beat this to death? Sorry about that!

S

 

[u079721]

Wonder what the design criteria were?

I wonder what the design criteria were when the 38 was designed? On some racing boats you will see multiple tracks for different headsails, to achieve the optimum sheeting angle with each. The placement of the inboard track was dictated in this case by the design of the deck, so as not to be in the way. But even so, given the resulting sheeting angle (which I always meant to measure, but never got around to doing) it would seem to follow that the inboard track placement is perfect for only one headsail size - a 110 maybe?

 

[Seth]

design criteria

Steve,

That is strange. Unless your boat has been modified, the inboard track runs from just aft of the chainplates back to the area by the primary winches. The standard inboard track can accomodate anything from a 70-80% jib (although it would need a fairly high clew-100% will fit perfectly) all the way up to a 155%-at least 12-14 feet long I would guess (don't have the sailplan in front of me right now). This is what the boat came from the factory with, and if you only have a short piece near the chainplates (where a 110% might lead) I would love to see a photo of that-certainly not standard.

To answer your other question about the design criteria, the boat was intended as a performance cruiser-or cruiser-racer. The cabin trunk width was determined, in part, by the need to provide sufficient tracks so that a full range of sails can be sheeted at efficient angles by the current standards.

Since it is a cruiser-racer(rather than a racer-cruiser) the decision was to have just 1 continuous inboard track for upwind with genoas ranging from 155% down to around 100%, and 1 continuous outboard track for reaching leads and spinnaker block mounting. Having intermediate tracks (as you have seen on some racers) would add expense, deck clutter (not popular with cruisers), and weight. When the need arises for a racing sailor to trim in between the inboard and outboard tracks, he/she simply does as I mentioned earlier: use 2 sheets (one to the inboard and one to the outboard), and locate the clew EXACTLY where it trims best. In fact, this is now in vogue on true racers, since they also do not like weight and clutter, and with the middle track, you still may not have the ideal spot, so the "thing to do" these days is to use the 2 sheet method when hauling the clew/sail in or out as the sailing angle changes.

I hope this answers your questions-but you got my attention concerning not having enough track for anything bigger than the 110%-let's get to the bottom of that one.....
Cheers

 

[Chris Miller]

While we're having this discussion...

So given Seth's design thoughts on the multiple tracks, do the kind folks who figure out handicaps (such as PHRF) take these things into account? Or do they just figure on sail area, weight, LWL, etc...?
Not an issue on our Ericson, but pretty major issue with the Farr I race on.
Thanks,
Chris

This thread also has me thinking, but I'll start a new thread for that---