Funny you mention this, my Adler-Barbour system uses a bit of juice too. I have been reading what Nigel Calder has to say on the topic in his book. He recommends at least 4" of blueboard foam, preferably 6". I am guessing the '80's boats are pretty lacking in this area. The other problem area is the icebox lid and the crappy seal. I have looked into www.glacierbay.com at the special vacuum insulation complete with the rounded edge double lip seal lid. Spendy but looks like the best possible solution.
I am considering a countertop tearout this winter to access the icebox. Planning on possibly re-insulating the factory icebox liner with 4" of blueboard and then popping for a Glacier Bay special lid setup. That would be the most effective for "cheap". The next step would be to simply order a custom box from Glacier. I would like to redo the countertops in Corian/Staron with an undermount sink if I can find one. I do kitchen remodels for a living so this is kinda up my alley.... Plan on reusing the AB refrigeration system just getting more air to the unit. I would love a Glacier Micro HPS system but thats WAY to much money.
RT
I am considering a countertop tearout this winter to access the icebox. Planning on possibly re-insulating the factory icebox liner with 4" of blueboard and then popping for a Glacier Bay special lid setup. That would be the most effective for "cheap". The next step would be to simply order a custom box from Glacier. I would like to redo the countertops in Corian/Staron with an undermount sink if I can find one. I do kitchen remodels for a living so this is kinda up my alley.... Plan on reusing the AB refrigeration system just getting more air to the unit. I would love a Glacier Micro HPS system but thats WAY to much money.
RT
My neighbor has an older Hallberg-Rassey and it has 6" of insulation in his icebox.
I like cold drinks and fresh food and at 3a I don't have enough juice to run the icebox-period.
Today I looked at it and I don't think there is a lick of insulation. I also though of updating the counter tops and might consider configuring an opening that will accomodate an igloo box that I could install my plates in.
I also thought of removing my stove, installing a cook top with a slidout icebox below.
Just a thought, but it definitely need resolving.
John
I like cold drinks and fresh food and at 3a I don't have enough juice to run the icebox-period.
Today I looked at it and I don't think there is a lick of insulation. I also though of updating the counter tops and might consider configuring an opening that will accomodate an igloo box that I could install my plates in.
I also thought of removing my stove, installing a cook top with a slidout icebox below.
Just a thought, but it definitely need resolving.
John
Randy Rutledge
Sustaining Member
Remember the more empty space in the ice box the more the compressor has to cycle. Jugs of water or more beer will fill the void and retain the cold longer. I even keep my margarita mix in the box.
Seriously every opening of the lid fans the air and heats up the box but cold liquid will just need maintaining and will help reduce the loss of cool.
Who will be the first to say the recovery time (run time per cycle) is higher with more content?
Insulate a trap or loop in the drain tube to prevent cold from being lost down the drain and more battery power.
I am considering a water bath condenser on my air and on the ice box when I get a cold plate installed. Using a WM no that is Wal-Mart window air unit and a dorm refrigerat
Seriously every opening of the lid fans the air and heats up the box but cold liquid will just need maintaining and will help reduce the loss of cool.
Who will be the first to say the recovery time (run time per cycle) is higher with more content?
Insulate a trap or loop in the drain tube to prevent cold from being lost down the drain and more battery power.
I am considering a water bath condenser on my air and on the ice box when I get a cold plate installed. Using a WM no that is Wal-Mart window air unit and a dorm refrigerat
Randy Rutledge
Sustaining Member
I also keep a folded towel covering the ice box lid.
John:
You may also want to consider a temporary solution (also permanent) - adding a insulating blanket on top of the contents. Some friends who cruise the Bahamas each year told us about this. I purchased one for both ice boxes and an informal test showed it does make a difference. The link to the supplier is StandoutYachtFittings.com The product is called "Super Q" Ice Saver Blanket.
Kevin
E 34
You may also want to consider a temporary solution (also permanent) - adding a insulating blanket on top of the contents. Some friends who cruise the Bahamas each year told us about this. I purchased one for both ice boxes and an informal test showed it does make a difference. The link to the supplier is StandoutYachtFittings.com The product is called "Super Q" Ice Saver Blanket.
Kevin
E 34
Auto shade perhaps
Kevin, thanks for the tip.
I looked at their website and it does look like a worthwhile product. Interestingly, the Ice Saver Blanket description is in conflict with the laws of thermodynamics when it says something to the effect that the blanket reflects heat away and cold back inside. While it is desirable and achievable to reflect heat energy away, cold cannot be reflected. I know they meant well. Heat energy flows from relatively warmer regions to relatively cooler ones until equilibrium is reached and that is the end of the story. The insulation's job is to reduce the flow.
Anyway, this got me thinking and I noticed that their thin icebox liner description sounds just like the auto windshield shade that I use, with two layers of shiny foil separated by shallow bubble pack. Of course the auto shade is a fraction of the cost of their product. I'm going to pick up another auto shade, slice it up to size, and see how it works out. I suppose I could make some little portlight shades while I'm at it.
The heat is on here and Kokomo could use a break.
Kevin, thanks for the tip.
I looked at their website and it does look like a worthwhile product. Interestingly, the Ice Saver Blanket description is in conflict with the laws of thermodynamics when it says something to the effect that the blanket reflects heat away and cold back inside. While it is desirable and achievable to reflect heat energy away, cold cannot be reflected. I know they meant well. Heat energy flows from relatively warmer regions to relatively cooler ones until equilibrium is reached and that is the end of the story. The insulation's job is to reduce the flow.
Anyway, this got me thinking and I noticed that their thin icebox liner description sounds just like the auto windshield shade that I use, with two layers of shiny foil separated by shallow bubble pack. Of course the auto shade is a fraction of the cost of their product. I'm going to pick up another auto shade, slice it up to size, and see how it works out. I suppose I could make some little portlight shades while I'm at it.
The heat is on here and Kokomo could use a break.
kevin81 said:
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Very good suggestions from all.
I visited the web site then realized that the aluminum sheets sandwiched around bubble wrap is really to retain heat. I've used a product by a company named Reflectix (Reflectixinc.com) to wrap hot water tanks and it is a very good product to retain heat.
Then I got to thinking about making some sort of "Pizza delivery box" type system that could use this reflectix wrap. The company states that with a 1/2" air cushion the insulating factor could be very high (14R).
The Yachtout product is really two pieces of foil backed bubble wrap in a material envelope.
Last night I went to the boat and took some measurements so now I'll mull it over. My box is about 27" by 29"
Any thoughts?
John
I visited the web site then realized that the aluminum sheets sandwiched around bubble wrap is really to retain heat. I've used a product by a company named Reflectix (Reflectixinc.com) to wrap hot water tanks and it is a very good product to retain heat.
Then I got to thinking about making some sort of "Pizza delivery box" type system that could use this reflectix wrap. The company states that with a 1/2" air cushion the insulating factor could be very high (14R).
The Yachtout product is really two pieces of foil backed bubble wrap in a material envelope.
Last night I went to the boat and took some measurements so now I'll mull it over. My box is about 27" by 29"
Any thoughts?
John
A little thermodynamics anyone ?
John,
I thought I should respond to your mention of "retain heat". Actually the icebox insulation goal is a bit more complicated. Its really about protecting the icebox cold spot from the surronding heat energy.
Here's something close to what I just emailed to the Ice Saver Blanket people to clarify an inaccurate statement on their website claiming reflection of cold:
The compressor is pumping the heat energy out of the frig and you want to protect the colder area that the compressor just made from any heat energy flowing back in. That's where the insulation comes in. Heat travels by three means: convection, conduction, and radiation. The shiny foil reflects the radiant heat away. Foam insulation, bubble pack, or in the best case a vacuum panel prevent conduction of the heat. That just leaves convection, which is reduced by preventing the flow of warmer air into the frig with a good seal. For instance if one leaves the drain open, cold air, being denser, will sink by convection to the bottom of the frig and seep out the drain, sucking warmer air into the top of the frig and reducing the temperature of where the drain leads. That can be prevented by plugging the drain and having a good seal on the frig door. There would also be heat flow effects at the uninsulated drain where the heat below the frig flows into the drain area.
Finally, every time the frig is opened, the air is stirred by turbulence of the lid and some warm air mixes with the cold air in the frig, displacing some cold air to the cabin and leaving some of that nasty warm air with its heat energy in the frig !
So anyway, the auto windshield shade double sided foil bubble pack sandwich is not only a heat reflector, but an anti-conductive insulator with the bubble pack. Home Depot sells a thin insulation from Reflectixinc.com in rolls which is the same as the auto windshield shade with foil on the outer sides and bubble pack inside. The R values range from R4 to about 20, depending on the thickness. I just realized that I have a roll of the R12 stuff that's only about 1/8" thick. Besides being inexpensive and thin, it's water proof, so it will make a good inside the ice box retrofit liner. Since it's inexpensive, if it gets damaged over the season one can make another with a pair of scissors relatively painlessly.
Maybe I can install it this week. I don't plan to do any extended battery drain tests, as I already had a pair of batteries assasinated by a few transient slipmates knocking our power cord loose last year with our frig running. That brings me to another must have improvement: a low power cutoff switch for the 12 volt distribution.
John,
I thought I should respond to your mention of "retain heat". Actually the icebox insulation goal is a bit more complicated. Its really about protecting the icebox cold spot from the surronding heat energy.
Here's something close to what I just emailed to the Ice Saver Blanket people to clarify an inaccurate statement on their website claiming reflection of cold:
The compressor is pumping the heat energy out of the frig and you want to protect the colder area that the compressor just made from any heat energy flowing back in. That's where the insulation comes in. Heat travels by three means: convection, conduction, and radiation. The shiny foil reflects the radiant heat away. Foam insulation, bubble pack, or in the best case a vacuum panel prevent conduction of the heat. That just leaves convection, which is reduced by preventing the flow of warmer air into the frig with a good seal. For instance if one leaves the drain open, cold air, being denser, will sink by convection to the bottom of the frig and seep out the drain, sucking warmer air into the top of the frig and reducing the temperature of where the drain leads. That can be prevented by plugging the drain and having a good seal on the frig door. There would also be heat flow effects at the uninsulated drain where the heat below the frig flows into the drain area.
Finally, every time the frig is opened, the air is stirred by turbulence of the lid and some warm air mixes with the cold air in the frig, displacing some cold air to the cabin and leaving some of that nasty warm air with its heat energy in the frig !
So anyway, the auto windshield shade double sided foil bubble pack sandwich is not only a heat reflector, but an anti-conductive insulator with the bubble pack. Home Depot sells a thin insulation from Reflectixinc.com in rolls which is the same as the auto windshield shade with foil on the outer sides and bubble pack inside. The R values range from R4 to about 20, depending on the thickness. I just realized that I have a roll of the R12 stuff that's only about 1/8" thick. Besides being inexpensive and thin, it's water proof, so it will make a good inside the ice box retrofit liner. Since it's inexpensive, if it gets damaged over the season one can make another with a pair of scissors relatively painlessly.
Maybe I can install it this week. I don't plan to do any extended battery drain tests, as I already had a pair of batteries assasinated by a few transient slipmates knocking our power cord loose last year with our frig running. That brings me to another must have improvement: a low power cutoff switch for the 12 volt distribution.
jkm said:
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Shadowfax
Member III
Interesting thread.
Neal, I don't know what brand refrigeration unit you have, but my AB system has a nice little feature that shuts itself down when voltage drops below 11 + - volts, thus saving the condenser and the batteries from self-immolation. I have my condenser set just above the holding tank and I find that if I leave the hatch to the lazarette a bit open it provides enough air circulation [i.e. heat to escape] to make more of a difference then anything else that I do.
Neal, I don't know what brand refrigeration unit you have, but my AB system has a nice little feature that shuts itself down when voltage drops below 11 + - volts, thus saving the condenser and the batteries from self-immolation. I have my condenser set just above the holding tank and I find that if I leave the hatch to the lazarette a bit open it provides enough air circulation [i.e. heat to escape] to make more of a difference then anything else that I do.
Hi Paul,
This is our second season with the E34 and I haven't quite memorized the manuals yet, though I did breeze thru everything. I don't recall the brand for the frig but I'm glad that you brought it up.
I noticed that the starboard cockpit locker gets warm with the compressor, battery charger, and hot water tank in there. The freaking CNG missile is in there too along with the engine battery ! I was thinking of installing a small vent fan. Leaving the hatch lid ajar is a neat idea in the meantime.
I'm also planning to make a shallow vented volatiles locker on the port side and move the CNG over there. It gives me the creeps having it in the heated and electricals area. The area I've chosen for the new locker is useless unreachable overhead in the aft sleeping cabin.
Thanks for the tip on the lid. I can hear that poor little compressor cycling all night when we are on anchor in the middle of the summer.
This is our second season with the E34 and I haven't quite memorized the manuals yet, though I did breeze thru everything. I don't recall the brand for the frig but I'm glad that you brought it up.
I noticed that the starboard cockpit locker gets warm with the compressor, battery charger, and hot water tank in there. The freaking CNG missile is in there too along with the engine battery ! I was thinking of installing a small vent fan. Leaving the hatch lid ajar is a neat idea in the meantime.
I'm also planning to make a shallow vented volatiles locker on the port side and move the CNG over there. It gives me the creeps having it in the heated and electricals area. The area I've chosen for the new locker is useless unreachable overhead in the aft sleeping cabin.
Thanks for the tip on the lid. I can hear that poor little compressor cycling all night when we are on anchor in the middle of the summer.
Shadowfax said:
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Neal
Very good information and even I understood it.
I have a roll of the Reflectix in my garage and was planning to create some sort of a "pizza box" type enclosure. Might try to create a wooden frame with redwood. What ever I come up with I'll post.
I'll seal up the lid to keep the warm from seeping in. My drain is blocked. My "pizza box" will encompass my two Norcold plates. If I can just create an envelope that is cold, I too could sleep at night without my compressor driving me nuts.
John
Very good information and even I understood it.
I have a roll of the Reflectix in my garage and was planning to create some sort of a "pizza box" type enclosure. Might try to create a wooden frame with redwood. What ever I come up with I'll post.
I'll seal up the lid to keep the warm from seeping in. My drain is blocked. My "pizza box" will encompass my two Norcold plates. If I can just create an envelope that is cold, I too could sleep at night without my compressor driving me nuts.
John
This reflectix approach is the bargain basement approach. On the high end there are very efficient custom vacuum panel products. That is the ultimate but unrealistic. Price-wise, I saw a quote for one company's custom frig lid liner. It was about 500 bucks just for the lid ! Besides the expensive vacuum panel it also used foil to reflect the radiant heat. Their approach is to rip the frig appart and use the panels for the enclosed insulation.
I noticed the counter behind the frig gets cool and damp, so I don't have much confidence in the quality of the insulation. If I do the reflectix retrofit and the external dampness stops in the middle of our summer heat, that will be a measure of success. We'll see.
I noticed the counter behind the frig gets cool and damp, so I don't have much confidence in the quality of the insulation. If I do the reflectix retrofit and the external dampness stops in the middle of our summer heat, that will be a measure of success. We'll see.
Neal,
The $500 fridge door you speak of is Glacier Bay. Sure it ain't cheap but it is top of the line. For a system that would likely rival or exceed a commercial appliance Glacier Bay would be hard to beat. If I was circumnavigating their stuff would be on my boat.
Another idea for keeping the lazzarette hatch area cooler (I have the same condenser/battery charger/CNG bottle/Engine all in one place layout). How about some 12 volt "computer type" cooling fans hooked up to a small solar panel to ventilate the lazzarette hatch area? Seems an easy thing to do.
RT
The $500 fridge door you speak of is Glacier Bay. Sure it ain't cheap but it is top of the line. For a system that would likely rival or exceed a commercial appliance Glacier Bay would be hard to beat. If I was circumnavigating their stuff would be on my boat.
Another idea for keeping the lazzarette hatch area cooler (I have the same condenser/battery charger/CNG bottle/Engine all in one place layout). How about some 12 volt "computer type" cooling fans hooked up to a small solar panel to ventilate the lazzarette hatch area? Seems an easy thing to do.
RT
Hey Rob,
I can see doing some island hopping on Kokomo, but I doubt I would shell out a few grand to vacuum panel the fridge. For that much it should dispense homemade ice cream and slurpees.
I like the idea of a brushless DC computer fan, but where are we going to make the vent hole ? It needs to be substantial to support a computer fan and it needs to be out of the weather. As I recall the surveyor dinged us for not having a vent in the CNG locker anyway. Maybe it could go on top of the little glove box at the forward end of the locker. That's high in the locker and at the highest end where the warmth and any CNG fumes will collect. The solar panel is a neat idea but Kokomo's got 6 - 6volt batteries now so I think I can afford another 6-12 AH per day to run another fan. If we were really clever we could raise the compressor assembly and duct the fan so it can double as the locker vent fan. Hook up a thermostat and parallel it with the power wiring to the fan.
I can see doing some island hopping on Kokomo, but I doubt I would shell out a few grand to vacuum panel the fridge. For that much it should dispense homemade ice cream and slurpees.
I like the idea of a brushless DC computer fan, but where are we going to make the vent hole ? It needs to be substantial to support a computer fan and it needs to be out of the weather. As I recall the surveyor dinged us for not having a vent in the CNG locker anyway. Maybe it could go on top of the little glove box at the forward end of the locker. That's high in the locker and at the highest end where the warmth and any CNG fumes will collect. The solar panel is a neat idea but Kokomo's got 6 - 6volt batteries now so I think I can afford another 6-12 AH per day to run another fan. If we were really clever we could raise the compressor assembly and duct the fan so it can double as the locker vent fan. Hook up a thermostat and parallel it with the power wiring to the fan.
rwthomas1 said:
Shadowfax
Member III
Computer Fan
My thought was to cut a fan into the bulkhead speperating the head from the lazerette with it blowing into the head. This would draw air from the outside and help move the air around in the closed up boat. Running power to this point would be very easy and as the boat is plugged in and the battery charger running I'm not worried about running the batteries down
My thought was to cut a fan into the bulkhead speperating the head from the lazerette with it blowing into the head. This would draw air from the outside and help move the air around in the closed up boat. Running power to this point would be very easy and as the boat is plugged in and the battery charger running I'm not worried about running the batteries down
On my E38 there is a built in "hatch" right behind the galley sink for access to the trash can which is just past the bulkhead that forms the front of the lazzarette. My idea is to mount two small fans on a panel that could be placed into this hatch opening pulling air through from the cabin and into the lazzarette/aft storage areas. The air would vent through the aft dorades hopefully taking heat/fumes with it.
This whole process should pull air through the forward dorades and literally pump it through the boat. I was thinking small solar setup since it is only really needed when hot? The placement of the fans in this case would be very protected from the weather. I don't know the layout of the other boats here but it would do my E38 well.
RT
This whole process should pull air through the forward dorades and literally pump it through the boat. I was thinking small solar setup since it is only really needed when hot? The placement of the fans in this case would be very protected from the weather. I don't know the layout of the other boats here but it would do my E38 well.
RT
It amazes me how a thread that starts out about an icebox and it's design could end up about ventilation.
Anyways-I have completely insulated my icebox with the insulation and made an insulation pillow to sit on top of what ever I store in there. Now I have water, beer, Ouzo and ketchup.
Will take the 35 out for the weekend and test the box.
Will report in
John
Anyways-I have completely insulated my icebox with the insulation and made an insulation pillow to sit on top of what ever I store in there. Now I have water, beer, Ouzo and ketchup.
Will take the 35 out for the weekend and test the box.
Will report in
John