Hydraulic Backstay Adjusters

[ted_reshetiloff]

I am hoping to get one of these for the boat soon. (E 38-200) Any thoughts on brands? Navtec seems to be the way to go but they are not cheap. Looks like about $1500. Not exactly something I would want to go cheap on but I am always after a bargain... I would have to modify the stern pulpit btu I haev a friend who builds those things. Seems to be the only way to get sail shape to my liking.

 

[valentor]

Ted;

I replaced mine with a Navtec. It performs well, but is very loud when it is released. Also it started leaking during the first season, but Navtec is repairing it under warranty.


Steve

 

[Loren Beach]

"Pumping Iron"

Our boat came with a Navtec unit from the Ericson factory. It failed and was rebuilt. After a couple of seasons it was leaking down again, so I replaced it with a Sail Tec unit. It started slacking off after a few seasons and they rebuilt it for a modest amount of $, and now we shall see how it goes for a season or two.
I love the way they work, but regular servicing seems to be the norm for any brand. I should point out that a buddy of mine put a new Sail Tec on his E-33 about 8 years ago and it still works flawlessly. Luck and Karma may play a part in this...

FWIW, the boat goes to weather real good at about 1500 # on the backstay....
and we leave it at about 200# while at the dock.

Best,
Loren in PDX
Olson 34 #8

 

[Chris Miller]

My $.02

Hi Ted and gang...
Just for comparison- our 38-200 has a navtec that works really well for us. Ours does not require a stern pulpit mod, we just run it under the top rail (I think we've all had this discussion on another thread?) and it works out ok. Also, Chesapeake Rigging in Annapolis will rebuild and stress test a navtec backstay adjuster for $350.
Chris

 

[Seth]

hydraulics

There are several ways to go-one thing that is a good choice for the 38's, 35-3's and newer 32's (200 series and newer) is a combo backstay and vang. I say this because you can often find this package on the used market and for the price of a new, self-contained single backstay unit you can have hydraulic vang as well-giving you the ultimate in sail shape control.

If I were going new, I would stick with the Navtec or SailTec self-contained units-but go with the 2 speed handles-the older ones with one speed pumping can take a LONG time to gt up to load-which can be frustrating.

You also may have to re-tune the rig if you are looking for mast bend as well as headstay tension..Some of the boats are set up with very straight rigs (aft lowers tight, for example), and if you want to be able to flatten the sail as well as tighten the headstay you may need to consider easing off onthe aft lowers and maybe the intermediates.

About 7-8" is about as much bend as I would want to see on these rigs (in max bend mode-14-16 kts of breeze and up), so if you cannot get the main completely flat with this much bend you should consider taking the main into your sailmaker and having it flattened-usually by removing luff curve.
Of course if this is true, then you must have had a REALLY full main, and without the backstay adjuster you would have been very overpowered in anything over about 12 knots....

Cheers!
S

 

[u079721]

Harken Manual Unit

I number of my friends had hydraulic backstay adjusters, and for several of them they seemed to be nothing but trouble.

Another friend with a Tartan 40 installed a Harken manual backstay adjuster, the type that you work with a winch handle, and was quite pleased with it. He didn't tend to adjust it underway, but rather would crank down on it before sailing on the wind, and then back off the tension once back at the dock. Not as fancy as the hydraulic units, but I found it appealing for its simplicity and durability.

The unit is also small enough that I bet you could mount one on a 38 without altering the stern rail. If I had gotten around to installing a backstay adjuster on my E-38 it was the one I was going to go with.

 

[footrope]

Wichard hydraulic?

Hydraulics seem easy to use since you can set a pressure and repeat that setting once you know what it is for upwind, downwind. The race boats I've crewed on use hydraulic adjusters. The C&C 39 I crewed on had a "built-in" unit with the pump and valve controls in the starboard cockpit locker. Kind of an involved installation, but it was reliable.

Has anyone had any experience with Wichard hydraulic units?

On the non-hydraulic units how do you tell where to set them? Are you always counting turns?

I have to shorten my backstay to get any aft rake or bend, and was going to take care of that and other forestay-backstay issues all at once.

By the way Seth, that was a great summary of rake and bend a few weeks ago. I copied it into my digital sailing library.

 

[Seth]

backstay settings

Thanks Craig!
Actually, using the pressure indication is not a truly repeatable way of determining settings for given conditions-at least on the more serious race boats..Why? Because as much as we care not to think about it, boats bend and flex, and they do so differently in different sea conditions and sail combinations.

Using that method will get boats like the 38 (strong boat) in the ballpark, but to address the question the following method is the most accurate:

Tape a batten to the cylinder, and have the batten extend up 2-3 feet from the taped portion. Make a series of marks (use a stick-on tape measure, or measure 1" increments and mark them on the batten). Use a reference part of the backstay, such as the toggle, top or bottom of the turnbuckle, or a piece of tape, and when the boat is loaded up for the conditions, note which # on the batten your reference point is lined up with. Ultimately you will have batten marks identifying light, medium, heavy air, etc. By loading the backstay until it lines up with a fixed point on the boat, you are assured of getting the same setting each time..
This method works equally well with hydraulics, winch driven, and block and tackle systems.

BTW-Craig's description of the 2 function hydralics with a control panel in the cockpti is what I was getting at in the last post. Obviously this is a more complicated installation than the single function self contained backstay adjusters, but is does keep a crew from heading to the stern to make an adjustment. The easier it is to make these "gear shifts" the m ore often they will be done, and the faster you will go!

I hope I explained this clearly enough. If not, please let me know and I will try and post a drawing, but if you walk the docks you will see lots of race boats with battens taped to the backstay cylinders-this is the reason!

Got it? Good. Thanks!

S

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Very useful info here guys, thanks. Went out yesterday, 18-24kts, single reef and about 110% genny. Boat sailed well but I probably could have used less headsail. My 150 doesnt reef well past 115-110%. Shape goes to @#%#?!. I am pretty sure want to go with a self contained hydraulic unit as the mechanical units appear to have more parts (KISS) and I dont really need a hyrdaulic vang as I am thinking of getting rid of the one I have. Mid boom sheeting does a pretty good job and the vang gets in the way of my hatch. Long perios of down wind sailing I can always run a block and tackle vang down to the deck. They work better for this sitch anyway. All of course IMHO...So where can I find one of these Hydraulic used? Tried e-bay but did not find any. I am also not that good at search engines...

 

[Loren Beach]

http://www.sailtec.com/
http://www.navtec.net/products/index.cfm?main=hydraulics

And to acquire one, you might try one of these sources:
http://www.riggingonly.com/ (and click on Backstay Adjusters)
www.sailnet.com

Loren

 

[Geoff Nelson]

Hydraulics- Vang+Backstay

I have the dual hydraulic unit on my '82 E381 and use it all the time. The Backstay is great for flattening both main+jib at the same time and the vang I use more upwind that down to close out the leach (of my blown out main). I could not imagine NOT having a hydraulic vang (maybe I spent too long racing dinghies) and backstay.

I like the control mounting on the stbd side in side the cockpit (just under the autohelm controls) for ease of access while at the helm. I don't like the self-contained units that "install in minutes" as I bash my knuckles in-between the the handle and ram when loading it up and they just feel more flimsy (but lighter). Only problem with the dual remote control unit is that sometimes I start yarding away on the handle to add some vang and realize I am adding backstay instead but that is clearly operator error and not a bad of the system.

Cheers,

G-

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Are you able to open you main cabin top hatch with the hydraulic vang there?I have to unclip my current vang to get enough clearance to open the hatch...

 

[Loren Beach]

Hi Ted,
Our Lewmar size 20 vent hatch had just enough room to open it with the standard "rod vang," and when I replaced the badly-crazed hatch with a new one I reversed the opening to open aft. No more spray from foreward sneaking in, either.
Loren

 

[Geoff Nelson]

hatches and vangs

I have my hatch opening aft and it opens enough to get a nice flow (45degrees). The forward one opens forward so I can get airflow from either wind direction (when at dock) and as mentioned above, no spray when sailing (but don't open it too far during a jibe!).