How to tie Anchor Rope to 2 cleats, I may make Loop Bridle?

[alexwilliamrussell]

My E25 has just 2 cleats and 1 of mine had to be repaired, so I think I want to direct anchor force downward and equally so may just loop anchor rope UNDER but NOT TIED to the cleats with the rope tied to make a loop 10 feet forward and then the anchor line continuing 30 feet more to the Anchor. I guess this will rub and wear the top of the bow deck, but I can notice and stop if that occurs. I think arranging to split anchor rope and go to the 2 cleats seperately would be more complex and not as good since will pull on 1 cleat then the other each minute. Any thoughts?

 

[toddster]

There are many lengthy discourses available on anchoring techniques.

It might be a good idea to first focus on why one of your cleats failed. Was it the cleat or the deck that failed? The forces on the cleats should mostly be in shear, but early Ericsons didn't have adequate backing plates on the cleats and deck penetrations weren't adequately sealed, sometimes leading to rotten deck core. Probably these things should be addressed (or checked) first.

In your drawing, the anchor rode is not firmly attached to the boat. It appears that the rope loop would be free to saw back and forth across the bow. If it chafes through at any point, the entire rode would fall away. Or it might come off the cleats entirely when the line goes slack.

The conventional way to do that would be to cleat off the anchor rode to one of the cleats with a cleat hitch, then use a separate rope (e.g. one of the dock lines) to form a bridle by tying one end to the main rode with a rolling hitch and the other end to the opposite cleat with a cleat hitch or spliced eye. Let out or take in the main rode at its cleat to even out the bridle legs. If the wind and swell are not aligned, you can also tie this "bridle" line to a cleat farther back on the boat, to hold the bow into the swell, and ease the boats rolling motion.

 

[alexwilliamrussell]

Here on Galveston bay if rare North wind blows water out to sea the water drops 4 feet so boats end up suspended in air, and a cleat popped off before I was owner and they just left a hole in the boat. When I bought I WestExpoxied a cleat back in place and probably is strong. But I wondered for times at anchor with strong waves why not try to direct force downward and avoid a weird minute of boat movement producing a strong sideways yank on the cleat. I was thinking 99% of time the rope would not be sliding so no wear and tear, but for that fluke movement of the boat a moving rope would minimize the sideways yank and inside the HULL DECK AND SIDES FEEL A SQUEEZE of the rope loop almost no force on the cleat... This moving rope probably is not used by most boaters, but I wanted to ask... PS Fiberglass and cleats are normally so strong this rarely is needed, 200 pounds of wind pull is small, but I am paranoid about that 1 cleat. Thanks.

 

[Alan Gomes]

My E25 has just 2 cleats and 1 of mine had to be repaired, so I think I want to direct anchor force downward and equally so may just loop anchor rope UNDER but NOT TIED to the cleats with the rope tied to make a loop 10 feet forward and then the anchor line continuing 30 feet more to the Anchor. I guess this will rub and wear the top of the bow deck, but I can notice and stop if that occurs. I think arranging to split anchor rope and go to the 2 cleats seperately would be more complex and not as good since will pull on 1 cleat then the other each minute. Any thoughts?

As Toddster has pointed out, it would be good to first focus on why the cleats failed. But here is something I posted earlier about how I use a bridle on my bow anchor, for the purpose of getting a better lead. You might find this helpful.

 

[toddster]

Sounds like a case for better backing plates. (My boat came with only 1/2" washers backing up the cleats.) And for spring lines.

 

[Christian Williams]

Cleat the bridle ends to the cleats in the usual fashion. Do not "loop through."

 

[alexwilliamrussell]

My West Epoxying the cleat was interesting. The epoxy takes a LOT of filler to thicken. One time I tried to wait for it to half-react, and boy did that turn too hot to handle and got blister on my hand, it turns to jello in a quick 1 minute so I don't recommend that. I did find it would solidify even if go light on the hardener, I ran out of hardener. .. . . I did add layers to work gradually, but even that didn't stop the middle quarter inch layer from cracking, so keep your epoxy layers thin, I was able to add a goopey next layer to fill that in but I bet its not optimal. West epoxy is clear so that is sorta cool, can see an inch below the surface, ha. Thanks all..

 

[alexwilliamrussell]

Cleat the bridle ends to the cleats in the usual fashion. Do not "loop through."

Why not LOOP THROUGH, this aint rocket science I don't understand why its not an option. Especially in a Hurricane better to have rope burn on the deck and have hoop squeeze in the sides than the anchor pull off a cleat. I anchor in bad weather. . . . . The rope is going through the cleat so metal is still below the rope so the cleat still mostly is taking the force, so when its pulled downward the whole cleat is pulled down too so the same force is felt downward and same areas of hull resist, only a sidewards yank is different. I suspect Loop-Through makes changing the rode length impossible or hard so thats a valid reason not cause its inherently bad method. I am no expert.

 

[Christian Williams]

It is an inherently bad method because it invites radical chafe. LInes are to be attached, not free to rub. And if the line parts you're adrift, whereas if both ends are cleated there is still one line attached.

Not rocket science, no. Just basic seamanship.

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

I anchor in bad weather

A snubber could help save cleats in the future. Same with a proper bridle.

 

[Kenneth K]

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[Loren Beach]

Ken, that's a hum dinger of a photo.
I note that the chock has relatively "sharp" edges. That's a common (and highly illogical) fault with a lot of chocks. I had to do some research to find chocks for our boat when our stern dock line frayed some where it passed over the end of the toe rail. In my situation one of the three strands of our line chafed thru.

O34 - SS Deck Chocks added

A recent upgrade to the rear quarters of our boat are Schaefer SS cast chocks. Beautifully rounded castings and mirror-polished to minimize chafe. I found these on sale at Downwind Marine, so the delivered price was a little over $100. for...

ericsonyachts.org

Note B: we require snubbers on all bow and stern lines in our marina. Lots of wakes coming thru from inconsiderate power boaters. We have a heavy floating breakwater dock, but you can only "attenuate" so much energy.

 

[alexwilliamrussell]

It is an inherently bad method because it invites radical chafe. LInes are to be attached, not free to rub. And if the line parts you're adrift, whereas if both ends are cleated there is still one line attached.

Not rocket science, no. Just basic seamanship.

I can see Chafing as why Hoop Bridle is not recommended. But I imagine myself on the boat, in a rainy windstorm or hurricane, and wet 1 day is unlikely to chafe much. If have a superstrong thick rope then the Cleat yes IS the weak point, so in a hurricane like situation for 1 day this seems a better bet in SOME situations. Again with me on board watching, which is very different than tying a Hoop and leaving it unattended for a month.

Overall I agree with your concerns, and except in extreme wind conditions I plan on sending anchor line to my best cleat and then using a dockline and a fancy hitch to also go the weak hitch to split the forces via this V, so I am admitting a Hoop is rarely is good idea absent extreme conditions when a cleat may be yanked off. I do wonder how many POUNDS of force is felt from the anchor rope, 50, 100, 200, I can push my boat against the wind barely so I would guess 100... Thanks.

PS. At a local used Boat Shop I did find 50 feet of black bungee rope and at the dock I run long 20 feet lines from the 2 round winches forward at 30 degrees so the boat is pulled forwarded and any sideways move is countered, and I find this leaves my front cleat lines slack.

 

[Kenneth K]

Ken, that's a hum dinger of a photo.

Loren, I should have given photo credit to Rod Collins. I stole the photo right off of his website!

 

[Christian Williams]

Alex,

There is much written about anchoring techniques and practices in extreme conditions available for your study. Basically, it is very difficult and to be avoided if possible.

The issues are perhaps difficult to conceive if you haven't been there. Several anchors are required. The holding ground dictates the successful anchor design. Cleats are inadequate to the test, a sampson post is better but seldom available nowadays. Chafe is enormous as Nylon stretches and works back and forth through any fairlead.

Anchors work best with chain, the catenary of the chain being the real absorbing force that allows the anchor to hold in the seabed. An all-Nylon rode has to be extremely long in severe conditions.

None of that takes into account waves. In a storm, an anchored boat pitches violently as it rides the seas. This lifts the rode out of any chock intended to restrain it, effectively defeating anti-chafe gear.

Yachts can skate at anchor in astonishing violent ways, which undoes all attempts to control the lead of the rode or rodes.

In short, read up. And hope never to anchor in any storm, much less a hurricane.

 

[alexwilliamrussell]

Im not disagreeing, but sorta think anchoring away from a dock is UNDERUSED, so I wanted to say people should be more OK with anchoring andd why am trying to figure out anchoring my new boat. Three big anchors in line and lotsa rope, its sorta simple. And I bet cleats get yanked off more when at Dock, and rarely at Anchor since at anchor the yanks are less. Thanks.

 

[Second Star]

A couple of thoughts about deploying this arrangement:
the picture shows the loop tied at the bitter end of the anchor line. I've got over 200 feet of anchor line plus chain to be able to anchor in a range of depths and bottom conditions and the bitter end is tied off so I don't accidentally loose the anchor and line. So if your anchor line is tied off you would be making the knot on the bight and then have to manage three lines on the foc'sle, or risk loosing the whole thing while attempting to tie the knot in wind, current etc.
Considering wind tide current etc, it could be an awkward exercise holding the boat in position while passing the bitter end under the railings, gathering up enough slack to tie the knot in the position the diagram indicates in an area of the boat with really bad ergonomics for such a task.
Getting the knot untied after some strain on the anchor rode could be difficult too. Anchor line tends to get pretty stiff over time with the salt, dirt etc in it making knots in the rode difficult which is one reason why a bridle is tied to the rode rather than the other way around.

 

[Sean Engle]

A snubber could help save cleats in the future. Same with a proper bridle.

I was going to mention this as well.

I used a snubber (just tied one of my dock lines w/ snubber into the anchor line set after initial setting - something like below) and an anchor riding sail to reduce the loads coming in through the anchor line. The bow cleats are critical so I always felt a need to protect them (rides much nicer on anchor that way also).

//sse

 

[Christian Williams]

Three big anchors in line and lotsa rope, its sorta simple

Alex. No. You are new, Google it, ask around, confer with locals--they''ll know what works in your environment.

Cheers,
Christian

 

[alexwilliamrussell]

Three big anchors in line and lotsa rope, its sorta simple

Alex. No. You are new, Google it, ask around, confer with locals--they''ll know what works in your environment.

Cheers,
Christian

Max out on anchors? I suggest small anchors are a bad habit, it makes yes Anchoring Skill matter so much and eventually you hit a weird bit of the bottom so anchor fails middle of night. I feel anchors should be 2% of the boat weight. My 5000 pound Ericson has 3 chained in line weighing 100 pounds. If you use enough line between anchors to reach the bottom vertically a person is only lifting 1 anchor at a time, here in Clear Lake, TX bay that's 10 feet, so I could go up to 3x50 no problem, I guess most a guy can lift is 3x100. But then I usually see 1 30 pound anchor on a 10,000 pound boat, as if another 100 pounds would really weigh down that 10,000 pounder. It seems unwise to risk 1 in 1000 chance of anchor failing to save 1 minute of sweat, or feel one cant ride out a storm at anchor but feel need to hurry to marina.... Just, spend another 100 pounsd of weight, why not? I don't think chafe is a factor on anchors usually buried in mud so I have rope connecting 2 of my anchors with 1 chain connecting other half... I boated decade on a river and never drifted at night so maybe I'm weird.