How to sail E35-2 downwind effectively?

[RedHerring]

My context is short- or singlehanded ocean cruising, majority of which is going downwind. The sails I've got are main, 135% genoa, a conservatively-sized (I'd say, 120% of J) asymmetric chute and a storm jib on its own stay. Have a J-sized spinnaker pole.

So far, for true winds from 10 to 20 kt we just set a poled out genoa and drop the main and point the bow straight down. Less than 10, the genoa is replaced with a chute (still no main). Above 20kt, I start furling the genoa in, and somewhere around 30kt furl the genoa all in and raise the storm jib.

Questions for the collective wisdom, especially to those of you who race an E35-2, in no particular order:

* What can I do to sail faster in light/medium winds, without adding much crew workload or sail inventory?

* If I try broad reaching with genoa and main, instead of running, what should my angles be? I kind of feel that I end up steering far off course for the genoa to stop collapsing in the mainsail shadow.

* Where are the optimum sheeting points for the genoa and spinnaker (for downwind sailing)?

* How to reduce the main slatting in a swell?

* How to balance the boat when broad reaching? At hull speed with 10ft swell from the aft quarter, the stern gets kicked around when a wave crest passes, the windvane oscillates quite a lot under these conditions, and my (vintage) electric autopilot simply can't cope.

 

[Christian Williams]

Keep the mainsail up until overpowered. Reefs for fine adjustment and balancing rig.


In light air the propeller becomes significant. Three blade worst, two blade bad, feathering prop fastest.


I doubt tacking downwind helps with our boats. Go straight.


Vane with quartering sea dead downwind or broad reach, well, experiment with whatever sail combo and course requires the least helm correction for a human, and that's best for the vane. If the vane has a sensitivity adjustment, desensitize it completely and maybe rig a preventer string or shock cord to keep the vane from flopping around.

There is a point when vane steering no longer works, mostly because of interrupted air flow to the wind vane, but usually that isn't until the seas are very large and the troughs deep enough to put you into temporary calm.

But a cross sea is hard on a vane, and as you say kicks the stern around. Ordinary autopilots no better at it. The occasional broach results. Hand steering at some point to survive.

Ericsons were not optimized for downwind, so we are all in literally the same (brand of) boat.

Just opinions, of course, no matter how all-knowing it sounds.

 

[RedHerring]

Thanks a lot for the reply. Can you please elaborate on something I either don't believe, or more likely don't understand in here?

You said to keep the main up until overpowered.

The way I see it, this boat has a pretty big foretriangle, almost like a true cutter. 135 genoa is larger than the main, and when poled out creates as much if not more drag on its own than the main on its own.

With both sails up and a bow pointed dead down (or up to about 25-30 degrees higher), the genoa in the main's shadow either just hangs and doesn't pull at all (in light air) or noisily goes through fill-collapse-fill-collapse cycle - annoying for the crew, bad for rig longevity, probably doesn't add much extra speed, given that the boat is usually close to hull speed anyway with that much wind.

Besides, going down with a sheeted out main in decent wind, the boat wants to go up - noticeably more so than with a poled out genny.

 

[Christian Williams]

Well, look around and see how many other boats drop their mainsails to improve performance. Over 30 knots, maybe.

You haven't mentioned reefing. With two sets of reef points, you actually carry three sizes of mainsail. I have three reefs, which yields four mainsails. This allows adjustment for balancing the rig.

On that deep reach when the genny gets blanketed, setting the whisker pole to leeward can be a big help. Also, a compromise course adjustment.

Or wing and wing slightly by the lee. Wing and wing is very effective, although the boat rolls.

A big genny will often overpower the boat even on reaches. Reduce the size, balance with main. Roller furling and slab reefing gives infinite adjustment.

 

[gadangit]

Your set up is very similar to our E39. We don't have an inner forestay installed yet, but we are prepped for it. Our genoa is 130%, so all in all the same sail plan.

Light air downwind sailing is the worst. From a racing point of view, a very clean bottom and a feathering prop is essential. Not sure how feasible the clean bottom is when out cruising, but it does make a difference. Being able to easily move your sheet leads forward to keep your leech tight helps too. If it is a pain to move your jib cars and you are short-handed, you might forego that step. So make it easy.

One other light air trick is to go wing on wing with your spinnaker. You can run a bit deeper and offer more sail area. I have considered actually poling out our spinnaker, but have not yet tried it. I don't believe our rating rules allow that, so I haven't had a need to outside of a race.

Gybe angles are tough with a genoa. You have the same problem as the rest of us, but I think you are onto the problem: you are deviating from the rhumb line with little gain. So just go DDW close to the rhumb line if you can figure it out.

Sheets for both genoa and spinnaker should be moved forward for the deeper sailing. With the genoa just go with what the telltales tell you. For the spinnaker use a tweaker and observe boat speed. The goal for both sails is to close the leech. We use the same tweaker for the genoa and spin sheets which is led back to the cockpit. It takes just a minute on the rail to clip over the sheet and we have infinite adjustment back in the cockpit.

I do think Christian is on to something below mentioning to keep the main up. And reefing it as necessary. It will help the balance and provide some extra power. But, as you noted, chafing and banging are an issue.

Chris

My context is short- or singlehanded ocean cruising, majority of which is going downwind. The sails I've got are main, 135% genoa, a conservatively-sized (I'd say, 120% of J) asymmetric chute and a storm jib on its own stay. Have a J-sized spinnaker pole.

So far, for true winds from 10 to 20 kt we just set a poled out genoa and drop the main and point the bow straight down. Less than 10, the genoa is replaced with a chute (still no main). Above 20kt, I start furling the genoa in, and somewhere around 30kt furl the genoa all in and raise the storm jib.

Questions for the collective wisdom, especially to those of you who race an E35-2, in no particular order:

* What can I do to sail faster in light/medium winds, without adding much crew workload or sail inventory?

* If I try broad reaching with genoa and main, instead of running, what should my angles be? I kind of feel that I end up steering far off course for the genoa to stop collapsing in the mainsail shadow.

* Where are the optimum sheeting points for the genoa and spinnaker (for downwind sailing)?

* How to reduce the main slatting in a swell?

* How to balance the boat when broad reaching? At hull speed with 10ft swell from the aft quarter, the stern gets kicked around when a wave crest passes, the windvane oscillates quite a lot under these conditions, and my (vintage) electric autopilot simply can't cope.

 

[RedHerring]

Thanks.

One idea I haven't tried yet is to run with a poled out genoa on one side and poled out spinnaker on the other. Using the boom as a pole for the latter. Should work for conditions when there is not enough apparent wind to fill the main.

 

[gadangit]

Oh yeah, that would be interesting as well. It would also give you something to do whilst bobbing around!

Chris

Thanks.

One idea I haven't tried yet is to run with a poled out genoa on one side and poled out spinnaker on the other. Using the boom as a pole for the latter. Should work for conditions when there is not enough apparent wind to fill the main.

 

[RedHerring]

Exactly.

 

[bgary]

I doubt tacking downwind helps with our boats. Go straight.

I'll amplify that a little....

"most" boats will go faster on a broad reach than on a dead run. That's because of two things - attached flow across the surface of the sail, and the generation of "apparent wind". The effects can be dramatic on a planing boat (or a foiling catamaran).

But even on boats like ours, there can be benefit in heading up a little from a dead run. As a coarse rule of thumb, if you have a Windex on the top of the mast, keeping the vane lined up with one of the two reference wands can be good - that's usually an apparent wind angle of about 150 degrees.

The challenge is in figuring out whether it is "worth it" to do this. let's say you have a dead-down-wind run of 5 miles. If you were to sail at a wind-angle of 150 degrees, sail halfway down that leg, gibe, then sail at a wind angle of 150 degrees on the other board, you'd end up at the same spot, having sailed about 5.8 miles - a difference of about 16%, or 1/6th.

if* your speed went up more than 16% at the hotter angle... yeah, it was probably worth it to do. Plus it may be a better motion on the boat, but then you have a gibe to take into account, too.

$.02
Bruce