Have any of you repowered a 30 plus? Hoping for your notes on fit and the weird tri-mount

[light24bulbs]

I posted recently about maybe needing to repower and many of you were extremely helpful in deciding on a repower and what motor to get and so on.

Now I'm further along and I'm hoping to fit a Beta 20, it looks superb. I'm now hoping to find one of you who has a 30 plus with a Beta 20 (or 16 I guess) in it that can comment, particularly on fit. Even if you've repowered with something else (like a Yanmar) in the 30+, I still like to hear about it. I used the search to no avail.

I haven't measured to be sure but I suspect that the shallow sump beta 20 may be needed.

Changing the mounting stringers seems difficult (since I'm hiring this out, expensive) but I hope the beta will be a close fit. The old universal is also a Kubota. However, one strange thing about the old motor is that it is a tri-mount. Here's a picture.


So that's making the mechanics a bit nervous and I'd rather ask here before things get (more) expensive! They aren't sure the existing stringers will work, I guess around the front there. Apparently beta even makes custom mounting solutions but that sounds...invested. I think just somehow moving the front feet back a little bit somehow with a plate so they hit the stringers might work.

Another fit question is the shallow-sump question. From eyeballing it, it definitely looks like the shallow sump model might be needed. Luckily beta has one. The pan on the beta looks like it sticks way more down than the universal, especially with the return tube sticking out of the bottom. No harm in using the shallow-sump model, just a thing to figure out.

Anyway, I know I can figure a lot of this out myself with a tape measure and so on, I was just hoping someone has already thought it all through. I guarantee you somewhere there's a 30+ floating around with a Beta in it.

Thanks!

 

[Jerry VB]

Here is some good discussion: M25xp, convert from 3 point mount to 4? By the end of the discussion, a four mount adapter was successfully fabricated and installed.

The motor mounts bolt to the engine block and are removable and replaceable. If you stick with the existing three mounts, you should be able to adapt the new motor in one of two ways...

If you are really lucky, the old front mount can be unbolted from the current engine and bolted onto the new one (the mount can be seen in the exploded diagram in the above discussion). Since the engines use different Kubota blocks, this is a long shot.

If you aren't really lucky, you should be able to take some measurements off the new Westerbeek engine mounts and work with a metal fabrication shop to make a unicorn mount like the current one.

 

[light24bulbs]

Nice, extremely helpful. I'm particularly impressed by this solution



It's simply a steel plate that makes the triangle into a square. So simple it could work!

I will suggest this to the mechanics. This is the level of simple I could accomplish myself with my angle grinder, so it can't be that expensive...knock on wood

 

[light24bulbs]

Welp I just heard back from the beta guys here. 10k for the motor and 5-8k for the labor. Holy sh*t. This could easily cost 20k.

Guess I'm going to try to get my motor fixed. Sorry, we can delete the thread.

 

[Loren Beach]

I wondered what the cost might be. I spent just under 10K for my new Betamarine25, in 2018. Total labor (hired) was about 5K. I did a lot of work to remove the old engine prep the engine bay, and complete the install with new fuel lines and new exhaust system.

While you have the old engine out, whether it goes back in or not, clean up the whole area and reinsulate. Don't forget to buy a new torque plate for the old engine, and you might have to replace the old Hurth trans.

As for finding the money, have you removed ALL of the couch cushions!
Best of luck,
Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

Delete? No way (unless you request, of course). The thought process and information collected is now there for the next owner.

Keep us posted as you progress, topic of engine change or rehab is always of wide interest since most of our boats are pushing 40 years old.

 

[Dave G.]

I don't recall what happened to your engine ? Thinking it was a rear oil seal maybe ? IF there isn't any block, crankshaft, or bearing issues I would check compression and if it's good replacing the rear seal should be much much less painful to the budget.

 

[light24bulbs]

I don't recall what happened to your engine ? Thinking it was a rear oil seal maybe ? IF there isn't any block, crankshaft, or bearing issues I would check compression and if it's good replacing the rear seal should be much much less painful to the budget.

I think that's the move for me. Yes, it's a rear seal. Quoted 3-5k since they think the motor needs to be pulled. I'll have the yard compression test it just to make sure it's worth saving.

Thanks Mr. Williams. Glad me fussing about trying to understand my first inboard powered boat isn't annoying anyone.

Just for fun, here's a refurbished 1998 beta 20 for sale for around $2600usd, but god only knows the import costs and so on. I'm not actually considering that in a serious way, although I might be if I were in England and could go in person. Interesting idea. https://www.youboat.com/uk/d/boat-engine/beta-marine/beta-20-20hp-marine-diesel-engine-package/28732

 

[Dave G.]

Quoted 3-5k since they think the motor needs to be pulled

That seems really high to me. Not sure it has to come out but access to aft end is probably the issue unless you're a contortionist. Pull trans, torque plate, flywheel & I think you'd be looking at the seal. I'd get a couple quotes though, probably a $10 part at a Kabota dealer. You should also check your pan bolts and make sure they're tight.

 

[light24bulbs]

That seems really high to me. Not sure it has to come out but access to aft end is probably the issue unless you're a contortionist. Pull trans, torque plate, flywheel & I think you'd be looking at the seal. I'd get a couple quotes though, probably a $10 part at a Kabota dealer. You should also check your pan bolts and make sure they're tight.

Yeah, I think the question is if the motor has to come out or not. I'd be more than happy to try this myself if the motor doesn't have to be removed, I just don't really know much about dealing with my dripless shaft seal and so-on. The boats out of the water at the moment, so I could try it myself, if that helps. Seems like either the motor has to go forward or the shaft and transmission has to go backward, right? We have the same boat so I defer to you on that.

I took out the water heater and that helped a bit with access. It's still awful but..better.

I don't think the oil pan bolts being loose would make it leak from the rear main seal? Maybe there are some other bolts I could tighten to see if that fixes it. Obviously something is holding the adapter plate to the engine block, I could go try to find it.

 

[Dave G.]

Well the trans and shaft are not going back far enough. Don't think you want the trans connected to the shaft when you remove it either. You would at least have to pull the shaft / coupler and maybe the dripless and then you may have room to pull the trans. Depending on how your exhaust is plumbed you may have to remove the pipe going to the muffler.....etc. Still going to be a brutal access situation but doable. You'll also have to disconnect the shift linkage....haven't had to do this yet(knocking on wood) so just picturing it all in my head.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Yeah, I think the question is if the motor has to come out or not. I'd be more than happy to try this myself if the motor doesn't have to be removed, I just don't really know much about dealing with my dripless shaft seal and so-on. The boats out of the water at the moment, so I could try it myself, if that helps. Seems like either the motor has to go forward or the shaft and transmission has to go backward, right? We have the same boat so I defer to you on that.

I took out the water heater and that helped a bit with access. It's still awful but..better.

I don't think the oil pan bolts being loose would make it leak from the rear main seal? Maybe there are some other bolts I could tighten to see if that fixes it. Obviously something is holding the adapter plate to the engine block, I could go try to find it.

As someone who has successfully replaced a couple marine diesels and rebuilt a couple--and who is not much more than a shade tree mechanic, I fully endorse the idea of pulling your engine and getting everything cleaned up and serviced, but maybe not by the yard if they are quoting you that much money---going with a different engine is a very disruptive and ridiculously expensive option--from someone who did it and would not do it again. I realize the 30+ has some difficult engine access issues (it is the main reason I bought a different model Ericson) but if you have very basic mechanical skills, I think you will find that removing the engine is easier than you might think. Get Nigel Calder's Boat Maintenance book, the service manual for your engine. Once you remove the alternator, the manifold and the raw water system, you will be surprised at how little the rest of the engine is. There is a reason it has lifting rings on the top and they are handy--I have pulled them with just using a block and tackle and the boom--but the yard may have an easier way. Having the service manual is nice but an exploded view of parts is essential. Not sure what your yard will allow but you must have access to some local machine shop that has experience with rebuilding small diesels if you feel it is beyond your talent, Many (most?) yards send them out and just add the handling charge to your bill because they can make more money moving, storing and painting boats. But aside from the injection pump (which even the most accomplished yard will send out if it needs work) there is nothing in these Kubota blocks that is beyond most basic mechanical skills. It takes more courage and patience than brains to work on them and it is a very worthwhile for your future understanding of your vessel.
Rear seal problems on recreational boats are common. I think most of this is due to inattention to proper alignment or some bozo spraying PBlaster on the bearing when working on the coupling (it destroys the seals). I doubt if it is possible to replace the seal with the engine in your boat, but I have done one (in a Tartan 37) with pulling the transmission and tilting the engine forward. Better than a compression test (which are difficult to do on these diesels and can be misleading) a good modern mechanic can tell more about the condition of the cylinder walls and valves with a bore scope. But if the engine turns over and starts without a lot of smoke (some is OK) or a lot of cranking I would not bother with any of this if it was my situation. Actually, if the leak was very small, I might even try a gasket swelling oil additive---I did this on a delivery and the owner was very happy that a small, known leak fixed itself after a 400 mile motoring event. But pulling the engine out and cleaning everything up is a noble effort and, if you do it yourself, you will learn a great deal about your boat.

 

[light24bulbs]

Woah, leak stop oils?
Lucas Engine Oil Stop Leak

3 Best Engine Oil Stop Leak Additives - Do They Work? - Axle Advisor

In This Guide What is a Stop Leak Additive? First Formula Improvements to the Formula Top 3 Oil Stop Leak Additives Do Stop Leak Products Work? What is a Stop Leak Additive? An stop leak additive is a non-solvent chemical formula containing a blend of friction modifiers and other refined…

axleadvisor.com

If that has even a 20% chance of working and definitely won't destroy anything else, I will do it. This seal failed because the motor wasn't run for a couple of years and it dried out, we think. I will give it a shot unless anyone can talk me out of it.

Thanks for all the other great input. Truly helpful.

 

[Dave G.]

Also what type and weight oil is currently in the engine ? If it's a synthetic multiweight (10w40) or even a regular multi weight that sometimes causes problems. Try a straight 30w non synthetic made for diesels like a Rotella or similar. Synthetic oils are especially known for causing leaks in older marine diesels.

 

[Kenneth K]

Hmmm... From the bottom of the very article you posted:

- While these additives have not been shown to cause harm to an engine, a better option may be to use “high-mileage’’ oil. These oil formulas contain additives designed to keep engine seals flexible and help prevent small leaks.​

​

- Whenever you have a leak, it is essential to use the best long-term auto repair solution, which is to replace the leaking gasket, seal or o-ring.​

​

- There is no such thing as a miracle in a can. Using these oil additives is like giving your car drugs. They may mask a problem for a while, until they have a “withdrawal” and cause a much larger problem, which will require more money to correct. The best solution is to get the leak fixed properly as soon as possible. Additives are only a temporary fix.​

 

[light24bulbs]

Also what type and weight oil is currently in the engine ? If it's a synthetic multiweight (10w40) or even a regular multi weight that sometimes causes problems. Try a straight 30w non synthetic made for diesels like a Rotella or similar. Synthetic oils are especially known for causing leaks in older marine diesels.

I intentionally used conventional 10w-40. Rotella, heavy duty diesel.

Hmmm... From the bottom of the very article you posted:

- While these additives have not been shown to cause harm to an engine, a better option may be to use “high-mileage’’ oil. These oil formulas contain additives designed to keep engine seals flexible and help prevent small leaks.​

​

- Whenever you have a leak, it is essential to use the best long-term auto repair solution, which is to replace the leaking gasket, seal or o-ring.​

​

- There is no such thing as a miracle in a can. Using these oil additives is like giving your car drugs. They may mask a problem for a while, until they have a “withdrawal” and cause a much larger problem, which will require more money to correct. The best solution is to get the leak fixed properly as soon as possible. Additives are only a temporary fix.​

Yeah I definitely read that part. Worth a shot, though!

 

[Dave G.]

I intentionally used conventional 10w-40. Rotella, heavy duty diesel

You could try a straight 30w, worth a shot anyway.

 

[bigd14]

I think you will find that removing the engine is easier than you might think.

Yes, do it and save yourself many $$$ and learn a ton in the process. It's not hard once you get in there and start fiddling with it. Label stuff before you start pulling it apart and take a ton of photos from all angles with your phone. Helps alot when putting it all back together. Replace the motor mounts and make sure the lag bolts are secure, many threads about lag bolts in the engine beds here. And while it is out being repaired spend the time to clean up wiring and most importantly install new scupper and bilge hoses.

EDIT: engine access is greatly improved by removing the hanging bulkhead between the quarter berth and engine compartment.

E30-3 - E30+ Stern Access (Pt 1)

I have been meaning to post this for awhile but only recently took some pics. The aft end of the 30+ is only accessible through the lazarette. It's not a comfortable space. Add a spare battery various hoses, and a hot water heater and its nearly...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Dave G.]

engine access is greatly improved by removing the hanging bulkhead between the quarter berth and engine compartment.

It depends on your hull # . If it's #635ish or later you should be able to do the mod. If an earlier hull you need to be careful how big of hole you cut in that bulkhead. Major changes to this model mid 1984 and the bulkhead structures part of those.