Fire Extinguisher Mess

[Loren Beach]

Had an interesting thing happen inside our boat Thursday, 7-12. One of our fire bottles (5 pounder) decided to blow out its little O ring that seals between the valve assembly on top and the steel body.
It was not exactly "explosive" but while I was away from the boat for about 3 hours it had emptied completely and from the looks of things with some force. This was the one we have mounted in the aft cabin, adjacent to the galley and engine. Of course I have been doing quite a bit of maint. and upgrades lately and everything (!) inside is open with tools and parts all over. The side cover was off the engine area too....

When I opened the main hatch at about 5 pm, the interior, from the coutnertops downwards, was a ghostly white color! I could only see monochromatic shapes of my tools, gear and stuff. At first I thought I was having eye troubles, but each time I looked again it was still there!
It was kind of like looking out into your yard after a snow fall and marveling at the uniform cover and texture over... everything.

Soooooo, I ventured in. Aft cabin had powder about 1/8" deep on most flat surfaces. Main cabin coated likewise, but tapering in thickness toward the forepeak. Settee tops are well dusted and some light dust goes all the way to the ports.

Made a few phone calls Friday am to find that the powder is mostly "non toxic," but is mildly corrosive and could harm electronics. Right. That's nice. And the Statpower charger is mounted under that extinguisher, too.

Stopped by the Fein vac dealer and bought two packs of paper bags for our faithful little "robot" vac. Put vac out in cockpit and ran the hose down and started in.
Two full bags later I am about 2/3 thru with the worst of the obvious.
Looks like a week of wiping down and removing everything inside, bit by bit, to clean parts up. Even the tool box insides and all hand tools are coated.

Friday pm I visited the extinguisher company that has been certifying and (as needed) hydro-ing these bottles for me for over 15 years.
They say this situation is extremely rare. Speculation is that the two prior 100 degree days must have raised the pressure well over the standard 190 psi which would would stress the seal -- that and a suspicion that the valve was a bit over-torqued sometime in the past and maybe that over-tensioned the O ring seal. (?)
The company manager wanted to look at the extinguisher, and after one look told the counterman to go and get me a replacement one. I thanked him.

(A friend at the YC is a career fire fighter and looked at the mess and the bad extinguisher and said that he suspected improper assembly and that if I was polite I would likely get a free replacement.) He agreed that such a failure is very very rare. The bottle was a little over 20 years old.

All this narrative seems to prove only that you should keep up your inspections, and that the odds of this happening to you are probably too long to really worry about... But if it ever *does* happen...
Yikes!
:eek:
Pics do not show the guilty extinguisher, which mounts on the backside of the bulkhead by the galley range. Sorry; I was a bit preoccupied with the whole scope of the problem...

Damned good thing that almost all the cushions were at home the last several weeks...
Loren

 

[gareth harris]

Sorry to hear that. I do not think there is anything much useful I can say, but that does sound like a real hassle to deal with.

Some shop vacs can be fitted with dust bags, which might be very effective at removing it.

I never knew it got that hot in Oregon, is that unusual?

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Loren Beach]

Some shop vacs can be fitted with dust bags, which might be very effective at removing it.
I never knew it got that hot in Oregon, is that unusual?
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

We get a month or so over 90 or 95, in July, August, and early Sept. 100 is considered rather hot for us on the western half of the state.
The desert (east) side of the state is quite (!) often over 100. Portland is right at the end of the Columbia Gorge and gets some interesting weather because of strong East winds funneling down through the Gorge (quite hot in summer and equally freezing in winter).

As to the Fein vac, they use large dust bags and are wonderful for sanding with the hose plugged into the quarter-sheet sander output.

We got a lot more cleaning done today; not really difficult, just tedious -- removing stuff out to the dock to be wiped down or washed... bit by bit.

Cheers,
Loren

 

[Loren Beach]

The Insurance Angle

Update: Insurance related notes...
I had a nice talk with a rep @ BoatUS insurance this morning.
Confirmed about 100% of my suspicions about potentially making this incident into a claim. She said that, based on my description, I could have contacted them immediately when I discovered the mess, and an adjuster would have visited and documented it as quickly as possible. Then they would pay for a professional cleanup crew to come in.

IF the company that last rebuilt/tested the fire bottle could possibly be found at fault that company would be dealt with by the insurer.
The assessment and cleanup could take a week or more to come to completion.

By cleaning it up ourselves, and losing custody of the extinguisher, we would have little proof at this point to establish any liability, but they would be glad to take the report/claim and consider it. She said to keep a log and any pictures on hand just in case...

The only interior electronic item that seems at risk from inhaling some of the powder is the 1995 model Statpower 20 charger. The replacement value on that item is half of our $650. deductible. Big whoop.

So, on the balance, IF we had the time to wait for the insurer to arrange for a ( big $$$$ ) cleanup, we would have still been out the cost of the deductible.

No great moral to this part of the story... Since we were in the midst of interior refinishing anyway, this sets our vacation back a week. If or when the charger fails now, we will never really be sure if the dust caused it or just old age/thermal stress of its solid state innards.

My thought is that IF (!) this happens while we are in full commission with attendant damage to the cushions and normal personal contents, I *would* make the claim, pay the deductible, and let the insurer take care of it ALL.


This may or may not be the best decision, and most of this narrative is self-evident. Possible therapy for me to write it, probable waste of time for you to read it.
:headb:

Cheers,
Loren

 

[Bob in Va]

a timely warning

Loren, that is a great "heads up" for the rest of us. There are so many 5 or 10 cent parts that are critical to the proper operation of many of the gizmos we take for granted every day. A number of races (including the Indy 500) have been lost by cars' having an o-ring failure. Just recently I had an under-the-sink leak at home due to failure of a similar part and was very fortunate to have discovered it almost immediately. A friend of mine had a seal let go in the ice-maker water line running to his refrigerator while he was away on vacation - approximately $20k damage to his house, which the refrigerator company made good. I wonder if replacing the fire extinguishers, rather than recharging them, would decrease the chances of something like this happening. Knowing the pride you take in keeping your boat in good shape, it's painful to all of us to learn of this - I'm curious as to what you'll do differently from here on, since you do want extinguishers to be quickly accessible.

 

[Loren Beach]

Bob,
Good questions. For the future, I really have no idea if changes would be appropriate.
Generally, if unexpected flooding seems scary, a fire on board is one click scarier...

So we will continue to have four extinguishers rather than the minimum of two needed to pass inspection. They need to be near at hand, around the areas of risk like the galley or engine. They need to be obvious, and not hidden away from view. In this case, reducing risk trumps "interior decor" considerations, IMHO.

I have had extinguishers on board, increasing in number commensurate with the size of our boats, since we got our first 20 footer in 1976. While I have never triggered one of these outside of a short "fire school" in my earlier turn-marshalling days of sports car racing, they are considered a vital part of the boat's equipment.

FWIW, we have the other 5# bottle installed in the forepeak, a 2.5# bottle in the head, and one under a laz. seat in the cockpit. Reasoning is that you may need to "fight your way" out of any compartment of the boat if a fire should erupt in the mid section, like the galley area. Or, fight your way in from another compartment to attack the source of the combustion.

Sarcastic Sidebar: Sometimes i kinda envy those sailors that never repair or upgrade anything and sail until something breaks... and then duct-tape it and go right back out...

Loren

ps: I have a neighbor that has used a Halotron bottle(the newer legal Halon replacement) to put out a small galley fire from his pressure alcohol stove. No residue at all. Very Expensive stuff, but we may consider a change over.

 

[SingPilot]

Loren;

So sorry to hear this. Several years ago, a good friend had just completed a move from one house to another and was setting up his garage. His 1967 Corvette was in the garage, with the hood up, and the air cleaner removed while he replaced the air filter. He reached into a file cabinet to get some rags, and accidentally opened the wrong drawer. His wife had collected all of the dry chem extinguishers from the old house, and put them in that drawer. One of them hooked on the edge, and discharged when the drawer came open. Like your scenario, the dust flooeded the garage (as it is supposed to).

The powder IS corrosive, especially to aluminum. The entire engine of that model Corvette IS aluminum. He called the insurance company first. They sent someone familiar, and they totalled the car. It was cleaned up, and sold by the insurance company as salvage.

After that, I removed ALL of the dry chems from my boat, cars, and home.

Everything is either Halon (or it's new replacement) or Co2 in open spaces.

Hope it all turns out well. This is one of those things you don't learn until it is too late, unfortunately.

 

[jreddington]

I just replaced the extiguisher on my boat. Indicator was showing just under the green zone for charge. It came with the boat, so at least 10 years old, and for all I know is original (23 years old).

I had never removed it from its rack and it did have a couple rust spots on the back side.

I brought the old one home and let my girlfriend demo discharge it so she would be familiar with it. Interesting exercise in that with all her might she couldn't pull the pin on it. I had to give it a mighty yank myself.

After that the discharge in the back yard was a good excercise. She was always afraid of the kickback like in the movies. Was surprised that she didn't really have to brace herself.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Very sorry to hear about your ordeal

Loren,

Very sorry to hear about your ordeal. Like Bob in Va stated, "that is a great "heads up" for the rest of us." I have a newer extinguisher in my lazarette and I plan to exchange that one with the 5 year old one in the cabin next to the engine after hearing this. We had several 100 degree days here in San Pedro, CA last summer.

I hope there is no permanent damage to any thing.

 

[Emerald]

I have a friend who is retired from the Air Force, and he clued me into a standard procedure on planes to turn the extinguishers (like upside down, right side up, upside down, right side up) a few times every few months to keep the dry chemical from caking in the bottom. Makes sense, and is a good routine to go through and also keep an eye on gauges, mounts, and frozen pull pins even

 

[Glyn Judson]

On the subject of kiskback.

Jim and all, The story of your girlfriend preparing herself for kickback when using the extinguisher reminds me of last summer after getting my Harken Battcar system finally installed and functioning. A week or so later Marilyn was finally at the boat. I proudly showed her the finisntd product and asked her to give it a try. My lines are all led aft and as such, she positioned herself to hoist the main. Basing her stance and pulling effort on the old sail (I also got a new main), she gave the halyard a mighty tug and went flying aft, ending up with her keester at the back edge of the port cockpit seat. Her expression was worth a million dollars as she looked at me wide-eyed and uttered "Wow, that was easy". Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Loren Beach]

Engine, "snowed in"

Last part of the cleanup about done as of this afternoon. I saved the removal of the engine cover/steps for last. The side access panel had been left off for varnishing, and this was right below the extinguisher. So a lot of powder blew into the engine compartment and even aft where the shaft log and starting battery live. It is tedious getting the fine dust off of the little mechanical engine bits...
A chip brush with the vac nozle beside it seems to work rather well, though.
I am glad the Universal is a reasonably "dry" engine, with very few oilly places on it.

Loren

 

[Sean Engle]

I'm just catching up on this - wow...that's really too bad, Loren...I hope the repercussions from the material are minimal...



I know a woman who was pulling some clothes out of a vee berth one day out on Puget Sound - and set one of those things off...not fun...



//sse

 

[Loren Beach]

Insurance (un)Reality and BoatUS

Insurance sidebar:
After I initially returned a call to the claim lady, Lindsay, @ BoatUS, and explained why I was not (!) going to submit a monetary request to them at this particular time, I ponder why it was neccessary to explain, multiple times, that I was only notifying them in case some of the electronics fail in the near term. She seemed baffled about my references to their own "Seaworthy" magazine and its constant articles on prevention of claim/loss situations.

She mostly wanted to be sure that I had her fax # to send in a bill from a third party for clean up and any other bills for replacement of parts.
After some discussion, I guided her on how to access this 'net thread and print it out, as my claim narrative. (By subsequently tracking visitor access to the site, she did indeed appear to display the thread in printout form.)

Yesterday I get a form letter from her, asking me to submit a "written repair estimate," and to send along any photos and a statement of how the damage occurred.
It appears that she actually recalls/retained nothing I said or wrote. (!)
She did make it very clear in our initial phone conversation that I could not be reimbursed for any of my own time, which is fine with us; and I thought I was clear that my contact with them was largely to bolster their educational efforts in their "Seaworthy" magazine.
Looking back, it is odd how disengaged she seemed from any of the BoatUS preventative measures that they belabor in their publications and on line.

It was as though I was explaining her own company to her.

Looks like I should call them again, and talk to someone further up their insurance food chain -- or an underwriter at Continental Casualty Company.
Then again, perhaps it's also true that "no good deed goes unpunished."


Anyhow, it has been a learning experience for us, and we are still finding little drifts of powder inside of storage spaces that I would not have guessed it would get into. It's kind of like a perverse treasure hunt...

Cheers,
Loren in PDX

ps: Wow, is our boat interior ever Clean, now!

 

[jreddington]

Loren,

I was amused by your claims discussion with Boat U.S. I'm a forensic engineer with a major, not to be named, insurance company. I end up dealing with these front line claims people on a frequent basis on a number of lines of business, including marine.

You have to understand that a call center claims handler is an entry level position and they are strictly guided by procedures and what entries they need to make on their claim screens. They do not have a technical background and any training they get is on how to enter data into the system. Usually, if the person is good they eventually move onto other things within the company. Or, they get frustrated with the job and leave. It's rare in this position to find a long-term person with the associated experience. This is a high turnover position as I can attest to in many claims where it may pass through two or three people.

It's tough when you throw them a curve ball that you're not submitting a "monetary claim". This is insurance and everything is about "monetary claims". This doesn't mean you shouldn't call with a "heads-up" about a possible claim. We'd much rather investigate on the front end and have it end up being nothing than try to recreate information on an old event, not promptly reported.

As to trying to "educate" them on loss control measures, you're talking to the wrong folks. While the mantra in our company is "closing the loop" and feeding back claims information to loss prevention (where I worked before) and underwriting, there is a practical management, system, and resource limit as to how this can happen. With all businesses now running extremely lean, most of us are working to handle the immediate workload (quantitatively measured) before us (issue that check, close the claim, trigger subrogation, etc., but get on to the next one). Giving loss control or underwriting a call about this "odd claim" of an extinguisher going off falls under the non quantitatively measured category which doesn't show up when your manager gets the printout at the end of the month.

I'm not railing against this quantitative measurement. In many cases this type of analysis can put a spotlight on areas that can be drastically improved, and in our company, have been drastically improved. One example in auto claims is how many of our insureds are now pleasantly surprised at how fast our mobile adjusters get to their cars and get the repair process going. This is a win-win in that our customers are happier, and we reduce costs of rental cars. And with vast improvements in how we schedule their work and communicate information, while processing many more claims per month, their frustration level is lower because they now get all the information they need to get started without a lot of extra calls. No two (or three) separate trips to the same body shop because they didn't get the heads up that a couple other insureds' cars were there at the same time.

Your claim handler probably does not have a technical loss control background so it can be difficult to "translate" this information back to underwriting or loss control. On my level, it happens more readily since we're communicating engineer to engineer. My particular group is purposely situated a little outside the normal chain of command and our productivity measures are purposely a little loose, leaving us with a bit more time to explore issues that come up and to communicate with other groups. This story in particular has been discussed around the "water cooler" along with my own experience, noted above in how hard it is to pull the pin on this. No great insights based on that discussion but you can be sure it's kicking around in our brains in case something similar comes up.

The system is not perfect yet and probably never will be. And an improvement in one area, can cause a drop in service in another. But I find that at least in our company, we continue to sincerely put a high priority on customer service not just because it's the right thing to do, but that quantitative analysis does show it brings us more business and improves our bottom line.