Facet fuel pump

[Navman]

Hello all,
I believe I am in need of a new fuel pump for my 1986 E- 38 which has the Universal 5432 engine. The engine has run strongly with no faults all season, about 1-00 hours including her delivery to her new home port.Here is what I did and found.

1- the motor stopped while under way and would not re-start. Plenty of strong cranking but it sounded fuel starved. Sailed into the dock and worked on the engine for three hours.

2- The fuel pump usually makes a loud clacking noise but it stops after about 8 seconds and shuts off, which means all is primed. However the last time out the noise seemed louder and it did not shut off.

3- Fuel gauge said 1/3rd tank of fuel left. Opened up the fuel gauge cover and peaked inside at my dirty tank and saw plenty of fuel( Am putting in access ports in-between the baffles this winter so I can clean the tank at will.)

4- Removed secondary fuel filter to replace( even though I just did it 3 weeks ago and have not had any rough seas or healing to stir it up). Upon removal I noticed that the fuel level in the filter was about 1-1/2 inches below the top of the filter instead of to the top as it usually is. I filled up and replaced the filter and did the same for the primary as a "just in case" precaution.

5- I then removed the fitting for the fuel pick up line, attached an old rubber fuel line to it and blew through the pick up. No obstruction and plenty of bubbles.

6- I then turned on the switch and heard the pump going loudly and not shutting off. I opened the bleeder and got no bubbles or fuel. Ran it for some time still with no fuel coming out of the filter bleeder.

7- Tried to start the engine and it fired right up and stalled just as quickly.

As it was getting dark and we had a long drive home I did not remove the fuel filter to check the fuel level, but I suspect that I would have found it to be low again.

Based upon the above I believe the fuel pump is the culprit. It has the old Facet box style pump. I was remiss in not getting the style/ model number off of the mounting flange so I could replace it. Does anyone know the Style/ model #? I know there are other numbers on the pump but they are not relevant only the number on the foot/ mounting flange properly identify the unit. or so says the Facet web page. As it a 2.5 hour drive each way I was hoping someone could 1- confirm or refute my conclusion of the fuel pump being the culprit & 2- Provide the ID number so I can pick one up at NAPA or Tractor supply before I go down this weekend. As always this forum has been a tremendous amount of help

Thank You very much for any help or advise as I do have to get the engine winterized soon.

Navman

 

[Christian Williams]

It might be the lift pump, but my guess is that it isn't. During my troubleshooting of this problem my Facet electric (box-type) pump made all sorts of different sounds, slow-click, fast-click, low-frequency etc. None of the sounds meant anything, in the end. The replacement pump acted the same way.

The pump is on the suction side of the primary filter (the first filter in the system, probably a Racor). It draws from the filter, rather than pushing it into the filter.

Therefore, any air leak upstream of the Facet pump utterly defeats it. You can't see a fuel leak anywhere, because fuel is not leaking out. Air is leaking in.

The air leak can be very subtle. In my case it was an invisible crack in the cast aluminum Racor assembly itself. It can be a poorly sealed screw-in filter. It can be a cracked hose.

So, I'd say concentrate on the system between the Facet and the tank.

I would take the fuel line off the engine side of the Facet pump, and make my goal to see fuel spurting out.

If it does, the issue is just bleeding the system.

Not an expert on this, only speaking from my own experience.

 

[Navman]

so if the pump has a suck side and a push side I can disconnect the hose on the push side and see if I have flow, correct?

If I can get the model number I still want to pick up a pump if for nothing else but to have a spare. Have a 1000 mile trip coming up in the spring.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

for what it is worth, the facet fuel pump for the Universal M25XP is facet 476459E (E 34). Retails for $275 from the Universal dealer, on line as cheap as $80.

 

[Frank Langer]

Christian's advice is good. However, my experience was different, so just to add another perspective and possibility:

My very reliable engine all of a sudden began to stall after about 20 minutes operation, ran fine again and would stall again, etc. I replaced all the filters, bled the system, engine ran fine for 20 minutes and stalled. I checked tank, tube into the tank, fuel lines, all connections--nothing looked problematic. Nigel Calder's book recommended removing the fuel line at the secondary filter on the engine and immersing it in diesel fuel in a pail, then running the fuel pump and watching for air bubbles--if so, it's an air leak. I noticed pinhead size bubbles which explained why the engine could run for a while and then eventually stall as air accumulated.

After checking everything, I found it was an intermittent air leak in the fuel pump itself (even though the Facet pump had been replaced new four years ago). When I replaced the fuel pump the problem was solved and has not reoccurred.

I bought a vehicle fuel pump rated at 8 - 10 gph (made for a chevy half ton truck) which the mechanic confirmed would work fine with my 16 hp 5416 diesel engine. I did not buy another Facet pump--when I opened the one that I had installed four years ago, the never-touched filter on the bottom of the pump which still had the factory seal on it had been installed gasket upside down by the factory. This, and it failing after only four years, raised enough concern to not buy another one. (Yes, I did try it again with the gasket installed correctly, and it still caused stalling).

I recognize that your problem may be different as your engine is not running at all, but the problem can be anywhere in the system, so systematic problem solving is the only way to get it solved in my opinion.

Christian is probably right that in his suggestion, but I'm suggesting to be thorough and consider/rule out all possibilities as you proceed.

Good luck!
Frank

 

[missalot]

I have a 5424, one cylinder less than yours. I got this engine from a consignment store and it did not have any secondary fuel pump. I asked a mechanic friend of mine (who had a 5432 in his boat) what to use. He said, you only need that pump for priming, once bled and sealed, the pump is not needed and the injector pump can pull the fuel from the tank. He used an automotive pump, only turned it on to prime the system.

So, armed with that info I put an outboard fuel line squeeze bulb (I'm cheap) in the fuel line. I use the bulb to bleed the system and it works great. Once bled, it runs fine. My fuel tank is in the keel area (my modification) so the injector pump sometimes PULLS a vertical elevation of about 18 inches when the tank is near empty. I have had this working this way since 1995, 20 years.

Kyle
E29 "Kymodoce"

 

[Loren Beach]

Not a new question

Pour yourself a cup of coffee, set yourself down with your computer, and put the word... facet.... into the search box located upper right part of your screen.
Lots of relevant threads and much good information.

Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

Say, Kyle, about your boat name--this is from the time of Diocletian? The lovers Cymodoce and Eudorus?

Or is there some ship transformation myth I saw a reference to, but never heard?

 

[missalot]

Say, Kyle, about your boat name--this is from the time of Dioletian? The lovers Cymodoce and Eudorus?

Or is there some ship transformation myth I saw a reference to, but never heard?

Kymodoce is one of Nereus and Doris' daughters, one of the Nereids. The name was given to me by a friend taking a Greek Mythology class. I was told that the meaning was "Ready for Waves".

Anyway, that's the story I have been telling for almost 28 years.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Navman - Have you checked the fuel pickup tube in the tank? Crap in the tank can cut off full flow. You should be able to blow through the line from the input side of the primary filter into the tank.

 

[Navman]

Fuel pump? NOT

Well friends, the saga continues. I went down and replaced the facet fuel pump this weekend ( $77.80 at NAPA) and there is still no fuel being sucked through the line. I believe now that the issue must be a crack or leak in the fuel line allowing the pump to only suck air. I did find one small dent in the line between the pump and the primary. I have removed it and will make a new one. If that is not it, then I will replace the entire line from the tank out. The pick up tube is clear of debris. Has anyone replaced their fuel line with a reinforced flexible line instead of the hard copper tube? This sounds like a more viable option than trying to bend and route a hard line front the tank, up and over the front edge of the engine compartment then back down to the primary filter. Kinking is always a tough issue when doing this. Any questions, comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks for the previous tips and advise.

 

[Tom Metzger]

... Has anyone replaced their fuel line with a reinforced flexible line instead of the hard copper tube? This sounds like a more viable option than trying to bend and route a hard line front the tank, up and over the front edge of the engine compartment then back down to the primary filter. Kinking is always a tough issue when doing this.

Navman - I had the copper diesel tubing wear through at a bulkhead and replaced it with rubber fuel hose. Easy to do, and you only have to replace the sections causing a problem. I just slid the hose over the end of the tubing with a hose clamp. This, of course, assumes the tubing connections are good.

 

[supersailor]

Fuel Pump Woes

Have you checked your voltage at the fuel pump? When mine made noise and didn't work, the voltage was 9.7 volts. A continuity check (touch spare wire from engine ground to pump negative) got things working again. A second check showed 10.7 volts at the pump which led to an engine rewire but that's a different story. Also, I had the no run problem once due to a hairline crack in the filter body. No fuel leaked but it allowed air into the fuel.


Good luck!

 

[Navman]

Fuel line replacement

Thanks Tom,
Just what I thought. I also believe there is some abrasion going on as the tube is routed through a couple of wood panels with holes and the tube comes to rest eventually on the edge of the wood.

 

[Frank Langer]

We have no rigid tubing in our fuel line, only rubber hose rated for fuel. I found our leak by running a new fuel line directly from the tank pick up tube to the pump and then into a pail of diesel fuel--it showed tiny air bubbles. As the pickup tube and fuel line tested good it had to be the pump leaking--replaced that and it has been fine since. Of course, I reinstalled all filters and tested connections.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

Also, I had the no run problem once due to a hairline crack in the filter body.

Me too. Be suspicious of the entire primary filter assembly.

 

[Navman]

fuel pump

Thanks Supersailer & Frank,
I will check the voltage and replace the fuel line as an improvement if nothing else. If voltage is good and I still have issues after the line replacement, then it has to be the Filter mount. This winter my intended big project is going to be the installation of fuel access ports in all of the tank baffles. With the advent of the new pump, lines, entirely clean tank and confirmation of proper voltage etc. I would say my fuel issues will be resoundingly resolved!!! As the say...fuel and air fuel and air and a diesel will take you anywhere!!!
Will let you all know how I make out. In retrospect its not a costly project to do all of these things and I believe the peace of mind will be well worth it.

Thanks and a Happy Thanksgiving to ALL!!

 

[Glyn Judson]

Adding inspection deck plates.

Dan, Our E31 came from the factory with a white plastic inspection plate. We bought her when she was 16 years old and that plate was all cracked and patched with Permatex gasket sealer, a real mess. It so happened that the brand was still in production and available at my local West Marine. It was an easy task of replacing it and all was fine until a year (?) or so later when cracks began to appear in the new deck plate. I called the maker and inquired as to why. I was told that the plastic they use was never intended to be used in the presence gasoline of diesel or their vapors and that it will always crack. So I bought a Bomar almag deck plate slightly larger than the hole in the tank and that's what's still there now close to 20 years later. Save yourself the trouble and expense and consider thoroughly what deck plates to use BEFORE cutting any holes. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

 

[supersailor]

Fuel pump

Just to throw it out. We had a pump die on a friends E36-RH. It's the little square pump that a lot of people have had trouble with on some of the later engines. We made it from Port Townsend to Port Hadlock by disconnecting the fuel return line at the tank and gently sucking on it to bring fuel to the injection pump. It did not take much pressure to run the engine. No fuel came beyond the pump. When the "pumper" stopped, the engine stopped fairly quickly. By rotating the "fuel pump", we made it to the berth.

Any port in a storm!!!

 

[Joliba]

A few years ago we replaced ALL of the copper fuel lines with reinforced rubber fuel grade hoses. These are very reliable, as well as easily checked, maintained, or replaced.... Great upgrade.While we were at it we put in a new filter as many others have. We put in the Racor 500 FG turbine filter unit. This is nice because a new filter can be dropped in from above without spilling fuel or needing to bleed air. Also, the bowl is transparent, allowing visual checking for water or sediment with easy draining. At the same time, we moved the filter to the forward end of the engine compartment where it is easily accessible even while the engine is running. Re-routing hoses is much simpler than fashioning copper pipes.
Mike Jacker