E38-200 hydraulic backstay relation to forestay question

[celtium]

I have the orig 1989 Navtec hydraulic backstay, works fine.

This is the first time I've had one on a boat, didn't even know there was a # pressure gauge on it . My slip partner said you should use between 2,000 & 2,500# pressure.

Also...I recently had my standing rigging replaced...prior to that, I had the rigger tune my orig 1989 Harken roller furling unit which worked marginally better after the tune up. Last Sun I was on SF Bay in 26 knots of wind, dropped the headsail sheet and couldn't hardly get the headsail to furl.

Why? My dock buddy, who is a surveyor said #1 I had to little back stay tension as I think I was at about 1,000#, #2 with 8-10" of sag, the unit would almost never furl. We rolled it out in 15 knots at he dock and were at a perfect starboard tack. After checking to see that the top and bottom drums were moving freely, he felt the only other mechanical problem might be an elongated foil.

So...I call Harken...the dude said the back stay has very little to do with the forestay unless your in one of those little J boats or some such. Also, it was very unlikely that the Harken foil had elongated. His guess would be that the rigger left the forestay to loose and needs to tighten it up.

So:

A) What is the proper tension for the hydraulic backstay.
B) What caused the furling unit to not furl.
C) If it is the riggers fault, considering the sail has been damaged due to the excessive flogging, do you think they are responsible for the repair considering it will probably be a $300 or so repair bill?

Thoughts and opinions are welcome and respected.

Thanks -

Jay
Celtica
SF Bay

 

[Loren Beach]

We do not have as much wind pressure as you, so my advice may be only semi-useful.
When we added a Harken furler in '95, I was told that the backstay needed to be pumped up to tension and therefore straighten up the forestay quite a bit. Then...
you have to learn to balance that against the halyard tension. Note that the tighter you crank up the halyard the more pressure you put on the bearings, top and bottom, of the furler.

Going out to sail, we put about 1000# on the BS and then tension up the halyard. As I remember, you should do it in that order rather than winching in the halyard first.

Perhaps Seth can drop by with some actual knowledge....


Around here, 15 to 18 kts is considered "big air." Not like the SF Bay at all!

As the wind picks up, I do bring it up to 1800 to 2000#

Regards,
Loren

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Lorens tension numbers and halyard setting orders are the same on our 38. I tune my own rig and have it set so that the first 1500 lbs of tension take most of the sag out of the headstay but does not bend the mast. This is accomplished by carefully tuning the headstay. I have the rig set so that with the hydraulic BS all the way off I get about 8" of sag in the forstayand no mast inversion. Full 150% Genoa.This is my light air setting. (0-8 TWS)

The next stage on the adjuster is from 1500-2k and starts to bend the mast and flatten the mainsail. First full genoa, then cars all the way aft, then first reef in genoa to 135% and cars fowrad. This is my medium air setting. (10-15 TWS)

For heavy air (20+TWS) we take it up to 2500 lbs. By that point I have about a section of bend in the mast (6"-8"). Main is reefed and genoa is furled down to 110% cars futher forward. Next we go to dbl reef and a pringle shaped genoa. Furled to 100% shape gets pretty bad.



As for furling the sail I find bearing off and sailing downwind makes all the difference regardless of wind strength. Harken guy is correct from the standpoint of masthead vs. Fractional rigged boat.

 

[celtium]

Thanks

The rigger will be out Wed. to take a look. It may be a combo of lack of proper backstay tension and not enough headstay tension.

However, the rigger agreed with Harken that the backstay tension should not have a lot to do with this issue. The rigger remembers adjusting the headstay several months ago when he did the tune up.

Maybe when he replaced the standing rigging a couple weeks ago, he didn't put enough tension in the headstay.

Reckon we'll find out Wed. Will let you guys know.

Jay
38-200
SF Bay

 

[celtium]

OK, Riggers comments

He said...the backstay should be around 2,000# - 2,500# in heavy wind, the forestay was properly tensioned.

Interestingly, he feels the stanchion fairleads are causing a lot of friction (I have 6), he suggested I go to the Harken furling accessories lead blocks etc. http://www.harken.com/CatalogPDF/172-headsail-accessories.pdf. He said further that with todays technology the rope friction is now more of a problem than the leads.

So...we shall see this weekend.

Later -

Jay
Celtica
38-200
SF Bay

 

[e38 owner]

Furling I learned this the hard way on the 38

The genoa is so large that if possible furl the genoa when going downwind.
Stops any flogging and makes everything a lot easier

 

[celtium]

I will try it.

For some reason it seems to me that head to wind would make sense. But I don't have a lot of hours with a roller furling. If everyone says it, that's good enough for me. Question though...are you saying to leave pressure on the sheet? If you 'blow out' the sheet, the genoa will flog, right?

When I had my 'incident', I was on a beam reach headed into a broad reach as I was coming down a shipping channel on a beam reach going into a turn to port.

I released the sheet while still on the beam reach, flogged into a half a broad reach rolleyes: sounds like a dive ) then started to tack to try to relieve the pressure.

We'll try it and see.

Thanks - Jay

 

[Loren Beach]

Rolling sheaves for the furling line

He said...the backstay should be around 2,000# - 2,500# in heavy wind, the forestay was properly tensioned.

Interestingly, he feels the stanchion fairleads are causing a lot of friction (I have 6), he suggested I go to the Harken furling accessories lead blocks etc. http://www.harken.com/CatalogPDF/172-headsail-accessories.pdf. He said further that with todays technology the rope friction is now more of a problem than the leads.

Note that Garhauer makes a very nice double-sheave stanchion pass-through for furling lines. And it can be installed without removing the life line wires. On our boat both designs work equally well in actual use.
I have one for a particular stanchion base that would not take one of the Schaefer "clear step" lead block sheaves that have to slide down over the top of the stanchion.

Attached are pics from each vendor's web site.

Loren

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I have installed and am very happy with the schaefer blocks reference in Lorens post. They do make a difference. As for furling downwind. The idea is to get the main to blanket the genoa so it does not flog so much and is unloaded. You will need to keep a little tension on the sheet to get a nice furl. One other thing dont wind a bunch of jib sheet up on the sail once its furled. So many people do this beacuse they think it will help keep the sail from unfurling in a blow.

A. It will not help one bit.
B. As the boat sits in its slip or mooring the jib sheets chafe the UV cover.

Take a look at boats in your marina and note how many have torn UV covers right in this spot. Wind it up just until the clew is furled then stop. Snug up your sheets and you are set. Use will gain you the experience to furl it easily in all conditions just keep sailing.

One last thing. The Harken stanchion mount ratchet blocks that so many people use back in the cockpit for the furling line should be examined. They are secured by a tiny 3/16" pin. When you reef your furler down in heavy air the entire furler load is on the tiny pin. Should it part the sail would immediately try to unfurl and could cause damage or injury. I thought about it when beating in 6 foot seas and 42kts of wind in a race last fall. I am now installing a clutch on the toerail track that will be used only when reefing. The rest of the time I have the stanchion mount ratchet with a cam cleat. A spinlock XTS single clutch will mount right on the toe rail T track by drilling and tapping the track.

 

[Seth]

HS Tension

Sorry not to have checked in earlier...

The correct amount of tension of course depends on the wind strength.

In under 5 knots of wind you will want little to zero tension on the backstay. You want as much sag as you can get in the HS without it bouncing excessively as you hit waves. A sagged headstay produces a more powerful shape in the sail and a more forgiving leading edge, which is easier to steer to. This very light tension also keeps the mast straight and as a result keeps the mainsail as full as possible-all desireable in light air.

Whether you use zero or a few hundred pounds will depend on the length of the HS itself, but the idea is to induce as much sag as you can, while preventing too much movement in waves.

As the breeze comes up, the HS will begin to sag TOO much, and the headsail will become too full (and so will the mainsail-for the conditions)....

Begin to add backstay to a). limit sag to a reasonable amount, and b). begin to remove depth from the mainsail.

By the time you are going upwind in 15 plus knots of wind you probabaly want as much BS tension as you can get-and assuming a well maintained Navtec unit this should be around 2500 pounds (as has been noted)-although on the E38 Cantata in Socal I often used 3200-3300 in big breeze, but this boat was very optimized for mast bend (slack aft lowers and we used runners).

For the average sailor 2500 should get the rig tight enough.

The main thing is to use the range of adjustment available for different wind speeds.

Cheers,
S

 

[Rhynie]

Jay,
You didn't mention if you have a spin halyard. On my 34, I put a longer shackle at the tack on my RF and that extra inch or so that it increased the hoist by was just enough to cause interference between the spin halyard the top swivel.

A similar problem on my P-30, if the spin halyard was slack, a couple of times it got snagged and rolled into the wrap of the genoo, as it tightened it would stop the genoa from rolling up.