E30+ INTERMITTENT STARTING PROBLEMS

[Peter B]

I'm having intermittent problems starting the engine on my '84 Ericson 30.
The engine is a Universal M-18 Diesel which, when started runs well.
The problem occurs after sailing for a while. The starter lugs and appears to not have enough power to turn over the engine.
My 3 year old batteries are at capacity, the starter/solenoid works well upon initial use (leaving the dock). Then, after sailing for a few hours, the engine (often but not always) fails to turn over.
I have personally cleaned the point-to-point connections but the problem persists.
Has anyone experienced a similar problem? Solutions anyone? THANKS!

 

[Loren Beach]

Harking back to old threads (and suggested solutions) I would also check all of the ground connections. Remove them one by one, sand paper clean, grease gently, and retighten.
If possible, have someone key the starter while you check the voltage at the starter connections.

 

[Frank Langer]

I had intermittent starting problems on our 1984 E30+, where it would usually start fine, but sometimes when I pushed the start button, nothing happened, no engine turn over or clicking, just nothing. It was a faulty solenoid, so servicing the starter motor and solenoid solved it, and is usually recommended if it's the original on an older boat.

Although starter/solenoid service is likely a good idea, it may not be the primary cause of your intermittent starting, if the engine consistently tries to turn over, ie. solenoid is working, though resistance in the starter could still be a contributing factor.

Assuming that your batteries are fully charged when starting well at dock, and that your batteries are healthy and maintaining their charge (have you had them tested?), I would suspect a wiring/resistance issue. If you still have the rubber trailer connectors (usually two of them) in your wiring harness, I would definitely replace them with connections to a bus bar (ask if you need more info). When I did that, which is only about an hour long job, starting the engine improved. That change not only made cleaner, more direct connections, but I was able to get rid of the extra coils in the wiring harness, which allowed me to completely eliminate one set of connections and reduce voltage loss with the shorter wires.

If you've done that, and still have this problem I agree with Loren to check and clean all negative/ground connections.

If you still have trouble after all this, let us know, and the real experts can chime in.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

So--away from the dock a few hours, the starter lugs and lacks power. But at the dock, presumably after being hooked up to the battery charger, there is robust starter spin.

I'd first eliminate the possibility that the batteries are not holding a charge. That means a load test. But you could also check voltage on arrival, disconnect from shore power, turn the DC lights on, and check voltage again the next day. Is it way down? Will the engine start?

Another possibility is a starter motor in need of overhaul.

Yes, as said above, it's usually the connections. Intermittent starting, meaning sometimes nothing happens and other times it's normal, is often an ignition switch or loose ground. But lugging--slow starter turnover--to my mind that's probably something else.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Start with the Grounds on the batteries and the engine. And take them apart and sand, clean and lubricate them as Loren suggested. I learned that I cannot rely on visual inspection of these connections and they can cause this kind of problem when things get warm. If that does not fix the problem, test the batteries as Christian suggests.

 

[Jaybee]

Retired mechanic here. Are you familiar with how to use a voltmeter?

You want to check the voltage drop on your battery cables. For example if you have 12.6 volts at your battery posts when the leads of your voltmeter are touching the ground and positive terminal of the battery then you should have no less than 12.3 volts with the positive lead of the voltmeter hooked to the battery cable lug of the starter motor while you are cranking the engine over.

Alternatively, how I did it to isolate the cause - with the voltmeter negative lead on the positive battery cable and the positive lead of the voltmeter on the starter end of the battery cable you should not have a reading higher than 0.3 volts(Again under load). A voltmeter actually measures the potential difference between two points, so that is what you are looking for. You can use this same technique on the negative battery cable. You can use this potential voltage difference (aka voltage drop) to isolate any part of the circuit - for example: between the battery post and the battery cable lug to find a corroded battery post, between the starter housing and the battery ground to find a poor starter housing grounding, between the input and output of a connector to find a bad plug, etc, etc.

Remember you want to find the voltage drop or potential difference while under load. Utilizing a continuity checker or ohm meter will give a false sense of security because the circuit is only being powered by the nine volt battery inside the meter. Much like a toaster oven, the wire resistance goes up under load as the resistance increases.

Alternatively, while having to fix something under the circumstances I was given, I've successfully diagnosed a bad starter connection just by activating the circuit for long enough for the bad connection to develop some heat and then feeling around with my hands.

 

[G Kiba]

Ditto here on the grounds. However, in addition to cleaning the terminal ends, check the wire to terminal connection. I found that a loose crimp on a battery ground cable was the cause of my intermittent starter problems.

 

[Christian Williams]

Peter B (Original Poster), can you reconfirm the issue? I took it that the engine starts OK at the dock, but a few hours later, after sailing, the starter operates but turns over only slowly, "lugging." In my experience, bad connections usually mean that sometimes "nothing happens." Is it that, or an apparent weakening of force after being off the shore charger?

 

[Rivergirl7]

After reading hundreds of posts and threads, we are astounded by all the knowledge and effort on the forum. It is an amazing resource! Being new to our 32-3, we suddenly have starting issues. The engine panel stopped while under way, we sailed home, and jumped it to get it into our slip. Since then we have completed all the recommended “A, B and C” wiring upgrades, and literally disconnected and cleaned every terminal, including the dreaded trailer hitches. I fear we are missing a basic ground wire… like it’s somewhere but is unseen. Could this be so? We have addressed every thing visible on the engine block as well as engine control and ignition. Thank you. We’ll keep deciphering….

 

[Jaybee]

After reading hundreds of posts and threads, we are astounded by all the knowledge and effort on the forum. It is an amazing resource! Being new to our 32-3, we suddenly have starting issues. The engine panel stopped while under way, we sailed home, and jumped it to get it into our slip. Since then we have completed all the recommended “A, B and C” wiring upgrades, and literally disconnected and cleaned every terminal, including the dreaded trailer hitches. I fear we are missing a basic ground wire… like it’s somewhere but is unseen. Could this be so? We have addressed every thing visible on the engine block as well as engine control and ignition. Thank you. We’ll keep deciphering….

Short of doing tests and gathering empirical data, you are employing what we call in the mechanic business as the "shotgun" strategy. Literally, shoot a shotgun and replace everything that gets hit with a BB pellet.

Don't get me wrong, you got to do what you got to do when you're in a pinch but since you are now back at the dock I'd recommend learning how to use a voltmeter or hire a mechanic unless you want to potentially buy a bunch of stuff that you may or may not need.

 

[bigd14]

After reading hundreds of posts and threads, we are astounded by all the knowledge and effort on the forum. It is an amazing resource! Being new to our 32-3, we suddenly have starting issues. The engine panel stopped while under way, we sailed home, and jumped it to get it into our slip. Since then we have completed all the recommended “A, B and C” wiring upgrades, and literally disconnected and cleaned every terminal, including the dreaded trailer hitches. I fear we are missing a basic ground wire… like it’s somewhere but is unseen. Could this be so? We have addressed every thing visible on the engine block as well as engine control and ignition. Thank you. We’ll keep deciphering….

Have you had the starter checked? On a charter boat we had years ago the starter would fail intermittently. The mechanic on call told us to tap the starter gently with a hammer when it wouldn't start, which was enough to engage the brushes (?) and make it work again. I had my starter tested at an old-school alternator shop and they declared it sound. Good luck chasing it down.

 

[David Grimm]

Check battery voltage FIRST thing when you arrive at your boat. Then check it while motoring out. With the motor running it shoud read around 14.1- 14.4. Then after a few hours of sailing lets see what we get. 12.7 v is a fully charged batt.

 

[Kenneth K]

The engine panel stopped while under way...

The engine panel is powered by the red 10ga wire that comes off the starter motor lug. It should be fused (30A fuse) somewhere close to the starter, but Ericson decided to move the fuse 15 feet away and put it behind the engine panel. That's not smart IMHO.

The engine won't start without engine panel power, but it will keep running once started. It will run until it is starved of fuel which may or may not happen due to the fuel pump being de-powered. The big danger in running without the panel is lack of engine instruments & warnings.

When my engine panel fuse started repeatedly failing a few years back, I was never able to discover the culprit. I rebuilt the whole panel instead.

 

[Christian Williams]

How old are your batteries? Since you're new to the boat, is there a record of when they were installed?

Old batteries can seem fine at the dock but fail to hold a charge. A load test is required.

Here're threads that may apply.

Universal M40 32 HP intermittent starter prob

Good day happy E owners, As a new owner of a 1986 E38220 (can anyone explain this to me, i.e. is it hull #20 of the E38-200 series? Or is it something else?) My understanding is that the M40 32 HP Universal engine is original, running hours unknown. I am new to this happy group, I was out...

ericsonyachts.org

Battery Health--hydrometer, plus potential starter motor isssues

I use two Trojan Group 27s for both house and starting. Lately one battery turns the M25 over with less oomph than the other. Both batteries were installed by the PO in early 2012. When on the Xantrex Truecharge2 40A charger, Hydrometer readings on Battery 1 are 127 for all six cells. Three...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[windblown]

On Saturday, we were excited that the wind and weather were finally cooperating, and we eagerly got ready to leave the dock, but the engine wouldn’t start. The wire connector (10 G wire with female push-on) had dropped right off the solenoid connection. Easy fix, but it took me a long time (and a couple of fuses) to find the problem.

 

[Rivergirl7]

Short of doing tests and gathering empirical data, you are employing what we call in the mechanic business as the "shotgun" strategy. Literally, shoot a shotgun and replace everything that gets hit with a BB pellet.

Don't get me wrong, you got to do what you got to do when you're in a pinch but since you are now back at the dock I'd recommend learning how to use a voltmeter or hire a mechanic unless you want to potentially buy a bunch of stuff that you may or may not need.

We are doing moving through connections, voltmeter in hand, wiring diagram in reach, EYO forum on one or both our phones. in answer to Christian, out starter battery about 2019 with its own dedicated charher, the house batteries are 2 AGMs as of mid -2021, with their own dedicated Promairiner charger. We also have 375w of solar panels up at all time, which appear to keep batteries between 12.8 and 14.1. We had replaced the keyed start with a Cole Hersey 2days ago and just replaced the fused (30a) line between the ignition to the ammeter just this evening…and we have power to the panel! Lights, fuel filter clicking, gauges returning to mor normal state. But alas, no start when pushed. But we will carry. Thank you for insights!

 

[Kenneth K]

But alas, no start when pushed. But we will carry.

Have you checked the in-line fuse in the yellow-red wire that goes to the starter? The Universal diagram says it's a 20A fuse. Also check the connections on both sides of the shoddy, old, in-line fuse holder.

 

[Frank Langer]

When I had the same problem as you are describing, it was the solenoid on the starter motor that was faulty. Since fixing that, I have had no further start problem.
Frank

 

[windblown]

We are doing moving through connections, voltmeter in hand, wiring diagram in reach, EYO forum on one or both our phones. in answer to Christian, out starter battery about 2019 with its own dedicated charher, the house batteries are 2 AGMs as of mid -2021, with their own dedicated Promairiner charger. We also have 375w of solar panels up at all time, which appear to keep batteries between 12.8 and 14.1. We had replaced the keyed start with a Cole Hersey 2days ago and just replaced the fused (30a) line between the ignition to the ammeter just this evening…and we have power to the panel! Lights, fuel filter clicking, gauges returning to mor normal state. But alas, no start when pushed. But we will carry. Thank you for insights!

When the wire to the solenoid came loose on our M25 this week, the key would start the fuel pump (you could hear it ticking away), then we’d push the glow plugs for 20 seconds, then when we pushed the start, there was one click, but no starter. We changed the filter in the water/fuel separator (despite the fact that this was probably an electrical issue, we were overdue for this maintenance, so guilt drove me there first). After we bled the fuel system and tried again, no more click with the starter button. A couple of tries later, we couldn’t hear the fuel pump when we turned the key. We eventually found three blown fuses: 30 amp behind ignition panel, 2 amp to fuel pump (also near ignition panel), and 30 amp to solenoid at engine, which Kenneth K. has illustrated above. (I didn’t realize this actually might be a duplicate fuse with the one at the ignition panel?!). I assume that the loose female solenoid connector might have flopped around and grounded itself to the engine block occasionally? Anyway, fuses changed, solenoid wire re-connected, engine fired right up. We have been carrying a spare solenoid for awhile. Perhaps I’ll bump that replacement up on the list.

 

[Rivergirl7]

Kenneth, we did away with that red-yellow line as it was recommended to do so being undersized. That was in our first upgrade, as mentioned by Tom Metzger and Christian Williams and MaineSail, probably 20 years ago. We moved the 20 amp fuse, having purchased a new one, on to the Orange 10g line that now goes from a slide on connector on the small tip on the solenoid through the new 20amp fuse line, then through both “dreaded trailer hitches”, then attaches to the starter button. We have noticed the trailer hitches getting wash during our our trials today, and will jump into that “frying pan” of cutting the out and butt connecting them, containing them in a sheath for their travel to the stern. The do the same with that trailer hitch connection. I appreciate the insights and time from you all so far! Growing knowledge, but great enthusiasm keeps us moving on. Thank you all. Keep you posted.