E29 "Deep Bilge" under stairs

[geoff]

So I have discovered an area in my bilge that is causing me some confusion and concern. Basically it is right under where the stairs are. My boat has an access panel to the bilge that is at the foot of the stairs. If I then take a flashlight and look down and back towards the stern, I can see a deep area, approximately 2+ feet deep.
When I bought the boat, we had discovered it and vacuumed out a bunch of black, stinky water. Now it's' been 6 weeks and I've noticed a swampy smell starting again, so I went looking and saw that this area was about a foot deep again. When I vac'd it out, I almost gagged...it was very sulpherous smelling.

This area is all well under where my automatic bilge pump is, which is basically up in the main portion of the bilge. There appears to be a hose at the bottom, attached to a manual pump under my seat outside, but this only deals with deep, deep water. It doesn't seem able to get that last few inches, so I've had to vacuum it.

Any other E29 owner's out there else deal with this? Any fixes? I am thinking of getting a pump down there, but it's going to be tricky.

Also, why the heck is that deep space necessary? I can't figure it out from a design standpoint. What stops me from just filling it in?

Thank you in advance for any insight.

 

[celtic sea]

Hi Geoff, my Ericson 27 has exactly the same thing, manual hose down there and any water smells, I have not been pumping that area out, seems to help keep the "stink" out, your questions are good and I've wondered the same things.
I will be paying attention to your replies so I can learn how to handle this void and what to do about it. original owner installed a plug at the top of this "hole" I can open it when on the hard to keep bilge drained from water in the winter but it doesn't drain that lower section, they should have installed the plug at the bottom of the keel.
I guess it is a place to put the manual pump hose.
John
Celtic Sea
E27. 1973

 

[adam]

Any other E29 owner's out there else deal with this? Any fixes? I am thinking of getting a pump down there, but it's going to be tricky.

Also, why the heck is that deep space necessary? I can't figure it out from a design standpoint. What stops me from just filling it in?

My E29 has only an electric bilge pump and it's at the bottom of the deep bilge. There's a little bit of water down there and it doesn't smell bad so long as I flush it out with water and soap once in a while.

As for it from a design standpoint, I'm guessing if you get flooded you want to keep the water as far from the engine as possible. If you only have the shallow bilge then sloshing water is much more likely to soak your engine.

 

[celtic sea]

Guess your right on that, that makes sense. Ericson's were built right.
I've had a few other sailboats, but love our 27, she sails great. And to think, its 40yrs old!
John
Celtic Sea
E27. 1973. A4.

 

[Loren Beach]

That Cavity

It was common for 60's to 80's boats from many designers to have an area in the aft portion of their keel cavity with nothing in it. The cast lead ballast was lowered into it (usually the forward portion) after the hull is molded out. Note that the designed shape of the hull-and-keel is set for optimum sailing efficiency and the ballast amount and placement is calculated for the righting moment and fore n aft location as well.

I one did a delivery on a Cal 34-2 that had its bilge pump mounted on a four foot (approx) board that was lowered down into that (Large...) cavity with hose and wiring attached.
Worked great and the normal/nominal bit of water from the stuffing box Never intruded into the upper bilge.

Every type of construction has its plusses and minuses. Note that a cheaper-built boat might have had an less-dense iron ballast casting or even even pieces of iron set in concrete that was all poured down there when the boat was built.

Lead is more expensive but puts the weight as far down as reasonable and let the builder get it bedded in poly mush in what was calculated to be the proper place.

When we get any loose water in our shallow bilge in our external-fin-keel design, we chase it down with a turkey baster and finish up with a large sponge. If we don't, water tries to get into all sorts of places we don't want it when we are rail down!


>>>>Trivia plus Opinion equals two cents worth of ... Historical Boat Blather !
:nerd:


Cheers,
Loren

ps: given that he worked for EY right after the change-over to external fin keels, perhaps Seth can weigh in with some much more accurate info from that time @ EY. And, Martin will have a lot better info the I have, also.

 

[Afrakes]

Deep bilge

On my 27 I have the bilge pump mounted to a rigid 3/4" PVC tube. the tube extends to the bottom of the bilge. Just below the fiberglass sole I have a removable transition that connects to the outlet tube which runs to the stern. The Water Witch bilge switch is hard mounted toward the top of the bilge cavity. In the winter I disconnect the tube at the transition and pull the tube, pump and wiring out of the bilge cavity. Then I pour a gallon of RV antifreeze in the bilge so any water that might get through my winter cover does not freeze. Al Frakes Port Kent, NY

 

[Emerald]

regarding your lovely bilge bouquet, that would most likely be little critter stink. I have good luck treating that just like my holding tank, and using Odorlos. And yes, it's holding tank stuff, but I think you'll find what's giving your bilge that lovely stink is the same thing, little critters:

http://www.odorlos.com/howitworks.html

good luck!

 

[geoff]

"I one did a delivery on a Cal 34-2 that had its bilge pump mounted on a four foot (approx) board that was lowered down into that (Large...) cavity with hose and wiring attached.
Worked great and the normal/nominal bit of water from the stuffing box Never intruded into the upper bilge. "


I love that idea. I was trying to figure out how to get a proper switch/pump system down there, but that makes great sense.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm really enjoying this forum, and I'm loving my E29. Second time sailing it today.... and more whales. In fact one surfaced coming right at us, and went under again not 20 feet from the boat. I actually said 'it's gonna hit us!'. I was shaking it was so intense. Luckily I had a camera and snapped some shots...unluckily I realized there was no memory card. Haha! Oh well, I have the memories of my six year old son's total amazement as he sat at the nose of the boat with his mother and the whale surfaced right in front of him. This sailing thing is the best...the only problem is that it's all I want to do!!

 

[toddster]

On my boat, the engine sump is only about four inches deeper than the main bilge. The hollow section is sealed off with fiberglass. There is a plastic plug in the bottom, but I haven't touched it because I assume I'll never get it to seal again. I have been on Cal's where the sump goes all the way to the bottom of the keel.

Somewhere, there is an old thread (not sure if it is even on this site) where a couple of owners filled that hollow section with lead shot and concrete, to increase the ballast and prevent water intrusion in the event of a grounding.

On a separate note, I wonder whether that could be an efficient location for a heat exchanger for refrigeration?

 

[G Kiba]

Love the idea of using a board to mount an electric bilge pump! Maybe a good application for seafoam. I think the same board might also be used to better the positioning of the hose for the manual pump hose as well.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

I used 60 lbs. of concrete topping mix and filled about 2/3 of the deep bilge on my E 29. I did this to prevent a gaping hole should I have a hard grounding and crack the back of the keel. There have been a couple of threads about e 29, 27 and 25+ all that share this hollow to the bottom of the keel design having catastrophic leaks due to grounding an I remember one thread about an E 27 that drug anchor and backed on rocks breaking the keel.

The concrete topping mix worked fine, just mixed to a loose mixture and poured it in, when it set I flooded and pumped her out a few times and now the bilge had a plug in this area and the concrete is nice and level. I think I will pour a layer of polyester resin over the concrete one hot day when it is nice and dry down there. The design of the keel well on these boats is large and will hold several gallons of water. Can't tell any difference in the boats balance. 60 Lbs. is not much difference in the keel weight on the E29 which is 3900 Lbs. and then 300 laid up under the sole near the mast support.

 

[celtic sea]

Randy I like this idea of filling this area, I have also been concerned about damage that could happen at this point of the keel. I'm considering doing the same on my 27 and would like to hear some other opinions on this. My boat has been sailing and pulled every winter (with the keel sitting on blocks) for 40yrs and no problem so far, but it seems like a very good idea.
Any thoughts here?
Thanks
John
Celtic Sea
E27. 1973

 

[toddster]

Since I first heard the idea, it has grown on me. When I hauled the boat, two summers ago, there were two fist-sized divots taken out of the trailing edge of the keel. One mid-way up, and the bottom corner. If they were just a little deeper, they would have been big leaks. (Or maybe a PO already filled the void on my boat? Can't say for sure, since I can't see it.) I fixed both of the dings, with cloth & epoxy. But I still can't figure out how they backed in to something without also taking out the rudder.


I wonder if using a concrete additive (such as the binders that make mortar stick to plywood) would help any filler bond to the fiberglass and enhance the leak-proofiness?

 

[Grizz]

I had one of those too!

The notch has been fixed, but not without consternation. Best guess is a chain carved out the notch...somehow. It's a mystery that survives only in digital format. But, every now and then, another image serves as a reminder!

 

[Walter Pearson]

Bilge Smells

My E27, when purchased, had the ice box drain leading to the bilge. I did experience odors in those days and I suspect that those critters were occasionally being fed. I changed that and the odor stopped - at least from that location.

 

[celtic sea]

Walter, is the deep part of your bilge always dry? Or do you keep you pump down there?
Thanks
John
Celtic Sea
1973 E27

 

[Walter Pearson]

Dry bilge

Initially, it was not dry, but since there was no pump - except for the manual pump at the helm, I set out to eliminate the leaks. Grab rails, portlites, bilge exhaust cowling, scupper drains, and rudder post bearing were all culprits. Once those were fixed and with a good winter cover, I never did find it necessary to install an electric bilge pump. During the season, there would be some water down there just because the manual pump would allow some backflow. At the end of the season, I would suck out what was there with the Topsider and it stayed dry during layup.