E28+ -- looking for other details

[FullTilt E28]

E28+ --Spinnaker info needed

I just picked up a 1986 E28 -- I'm not sure if it is the + or just the standard - not exactly sure how to tell the difference between the two. I know it isn't the tall version. Is there an easy way to tell?

Fractional rig set up. I haven't put the knotmeter in yet, to eye the motoring speeds. But the former owner just had a three blade fixed prop put on and had a local prop guy mess with the blade angles. I'll post my speeds vs RPM next week. Engine was surveyed and listed in excelent condition.

Say does anyone have their 28 set up for spinnaker? I'm thinking of adding one, just curious on how it sails with a spinnaker. Also curious what jibs people have. My current jib is a 100% good for the Summer winds in SF bay but a bigger jib would be great for the rest of the year when the winds are lighter.

 

[Gary G]

E28+ spinnaker setup

I have a regular tri-radial symmetric spinnaker for my E28+. I'm set up to fly it both with a pole and, when I'm particularly lazy, with an ATN Tacker (no pole needed). Of course with the pole performance is better but the Tacker is easier to manage. (Setup is similar to an asymmetric.) I also have a Chute Scoop to make hoisting and dousing the thing easier. I can tell you from experience that if you leave the chute up too long (wind cranks up) the boat sails crazy FAST! (Disclaimer - I don't recommend doing this.)

 

[bigtyme805]

I think if it has aft cabin then it's plus model. I don't think you want to go anymore than a 135 for your jib in the bay area. If you opt for a 150 you will be reefing it more than half the time. There has been talk about the 28 being a little tender when the wind pipes up, have no idea if this is true. I highly doubt it. Also, it depends if you are club racing, then that is a different story.

Have fun with your boat.

 

[FullTilt E28]

I have a regular tri-radial symmetric spinnaker for my E28+. I'm set up to fly it both with a pole and, when I'm particularly lazy, with an ATN Tacker (no pole needed). Of course with the pole performance is better but the Tacker is easier to manage. (Setup is similar to an asymmetric.) I also have a Chute Scoop to make hoisting and dousing the thing easier. I can tell you from experience that if you leave the chute up too long (wind cranks up) the boat sails crazy FAST! (Disclaimer - I don't recommend doing this.)

Hey Gary - you wouldn't happen to know what loft the spinnaker is from do you? I'd like to talk with them to get a sense of cost to have one built.

As for speeds -- LOL thats good to hear! My wife and I met racing sailboats, we have a small sport boat which we race 12-14knots with the 452sqft asymetric on the 1100lb racer is pretty nice! Guessing the E28 will comfortably move at 9-10knots in a good breeze with the kite. Then again its our little cruiser so doubt we'll be going for max speed. But there are plenty of nice down wind sailing events/trips where a kite would make for a nice sail.

 

[FullTilt E28]

I think if it has aft cabin then it's plus model. I don't think you want to go anymore than a 135 for your jib in the bay area. If you opt for a 150 you will be reefing it more than half the time. There has been talk about the 28 being a little tender when the wind pipes up, have no idea if this is true. I highly doubt it. Also, it depends if you are club racing, then that is a different story.

Have fun with your boat.

Your right Summer SF winds the 100 is about right. But the rest of the year it would be nice to have a larger jib. Next summer we'll probably pick up some new hardware at the boat show discounts. A new head foil will be on the list. Right now we have the large round alum pole looking head foil.
The Furler appears to be in great shape so - we'll be doing basics -- spinny gear - mast track etc. If we get really ambitious we might look at updating the jib tracks with adjustable cars.

As for the e28 vs E28+ as far as I can tell both have the aft quarter berth so my best guess is that the rig hight or mast vs keel configuration makes it a + vs standard 28. This one has the 5'6" keel option.

As for tender-- it gives you the impression that its tender when you step aboard. I've only been out twice on the boat both in 15-20knots of wind and my take so far is that the width at the dock makes it feel tender but once you have some heal going it actually is pretty solid. Main trim is key.

Travel up as far as you can and ease off the main sheet - makes a huge difference in how the helm feels and how well it does in decent breeze. Guessing a reef at sustained 20+ knots of wind would make it more comfortable. But it drives nice with the full main and 100 if your looking for a quick ride.

 

[Seth]

Not quite 9-10 knots, though

The 28/28+ is a very nice boat, quite powerful (relatively large sail area) for the length and weight, so it goes well in the lighter stuff.

It IS a bit tender for this same reason-meaning you need to reduce sail area sooner than than you might on heavier, or less well-endowed (sail area-wise) types to keep it on its' feet and moving well.

Given a LWL of 23.25', the boat will exceed the theoretical hull speed (1.34 X sqrt of LWL, or 6.45 knots) when surfing or really pressed with a kite-9-10 knots will be a rare event-only seen going down the face of a wave. If you can sustain over 6.5-7 knots you are screaming-but that is pretty quick for a 28 foot cruiser..

But, most of time, once you are overpowered, you will go slower, not faster-so keeping the boat on its' feet is worth doing.

As far as depowering goes-you can keep the trav up some and ease the sheet if you like, but more typically the move is to progressively lower the trav as the boat heels (becomes overpowered), AND ease the sheet. Once you are actually overpowered, there is no reason to actually raise the traveller from wherever you have it.

This school of thought refers more to the practice of limiting the amount you lower the trav and easing some sheet prior to lowering it all the way-but not specifically raising it in heavy air from some other position.

Each boat has a sweet spot combo of trav/sheet position, and that spot can even vary among the same model-based on the size headsail you have up, the way you have weight distributed, and how many folks are or are not on the rail. The best thing is to "season to taste"..

Fair winds,

S

 

[Gary G]

Sail source for E28+

Seth is right on as usual. His comments reflect my experiences with my E28+. As far as sails go, my spinnaker was made by North Sails (I'm in the Chicago area). Also, my #2 genoa is a 129% (6.5 oz dacron) and I use it pretty much exclusively on a furler since I don't race this boat. FWIW the way I sail, the boat balances very well and doesn't round up until the steady apparent wind gets around 17-20 knots. We're usually heeling at about 15-20 degrees at that point. For comfort sailing if the true wind in the harbor is steady at 15 knots I'll tuck in the first reef in the main and fly the genny all out. Anyway, that's what works for us. Fair winds and have a great time with the boat. (We're already hauled out for the winter.)

 

[FullTilt E28]

6.5 knots or so makes sense. I forgot to put the knot meter in this weekend so by the time we were out and about I realized I had missed it. So my speeds vs engine RPM will wait for another day.

My sense of tender is a little different given all my sailing has been on pretty high powered light boats. So far the 28 seems pretty stable with the 100% - granted its a small jib.

All good information.
Have a good week!
Trent

 

[Gary G]

Clarification on trim

Seth,

After re-reading your post here I'd like to ask you for some clarification. Under what circumstances, if any, would one keep the boom in the center of the boat and ease the main sheet? My practice is (whether depowering when the wind gets up or when changing point of sail to sail more off the wind) to ease the traveller down first and not let the sheet out until the traveller is all the way to leeward. Having said that, certainly we have all seen photographs where the boom is very close to the centerline and the main is twisted off rather severely. I'm wondering what the advantage of that setup might be. (Then again, maybe I'm just having a brain freeze here visualizing this!) Thanks.

Gary

 

[Seth]

Main sheet/trav

I generally do the same-when sailing close hauled in light air, I pull the trav up until I have enough helm or feel-the limiting factor being that as I sheet in, I make sure the top batten is not above centerline, and of course speed-if we slow down as we bring the trav up, I lower it back until we are back to speed. If after adding just enough sheet to stop the sail from luffing the top batten is above centerline, I lower the trav until it is and readjust thhe sheet. I do not worry about the boom itself being above c-line-just the top batten.

As the breeze comes up, and the boat heels I lower the trav progressively until it is all the way down, then start easing sheet. On a boat like the 28 with short traveller, the only reason I can see for keeping the trav up some and easing sheet first would be if the main were so deep that it backwinds from the genoa exhaust too quickly once the trav goes down (closing the slot)-this is a problem with the mainsail being too deep-or it is too deep because of poor rig tune/not enough backstay. The only other exception would be if the geometry of the boat (not the case with the 28) made it so that with the trav down and the sail sheeted properly the leech becomes too tight, but more likely this is a problem with the sail-not the boat.

None of this is to say you don't want twist in the leech of the main. In light air, you want it-which is why you rasie the trav. In moderate breeze you want much less, and once you get overpowered you want it again-and this is why you ease sheet after you get the trav down..

On boats that do not have adjustable travellers, you have no choice but to work only with the sheet.

When reaching with genoa eased, you also want the trav as low as possible-as long as you can trim the mainsheet without closing off the leech-if this happens, then you might raise the trav slightly and ease sheet to create some twist.

But assuming you can tune the rig so that main is not overly deep, the better move is to lower the trav first, then ease sheet.

Does this help?
S

 

[FullTilt E28]

I generally do the same-when sailing close hauled in light air, I pull the trav up until I have enough helm or feel-the limiting factor being that as I sheet in, I make sure the top batten is not above centerline, and of course speed-if we slow down as we bring the trav up, I lower it back until we are back to speed. If after adding just enough sheet to stop the sail from luffing the top batten is above centerline, I lower the trav until it is and readjust thhe sheet. I do not worry about the boom itself being above c-line-just the top batten.

As the breeze comes up, and the boat heels I lower the trav progressively until it is all the way down, then start easing sheet. On a boat like the 28 with short traveller, the only reason I can see for keeping the trav up some and easing sheet first would be if the main were so deep that it backwinds from the genoa exhaust too quickly once the trav goes down (closing the slot)-this is a problem with the mainsail being too deep-or it is too deep because of poor rig tune/not enough backstay. The only other exception would be if the geometry of the boat (not the case with the 28) made it so that with the trav down and the sail sheeted properly the leech becomes too tight, but more likely this is a problem with the sail-not the boat.

None of this is to say you don't want twist in the leech of the main. In light air, you want it-which is why you rasie the trav. In moderate breeze you want much less, and once you get overpowered you want it again-and this is why you ease sheet after you get the trav down..

On boats that do not have adjustable travellers, you have no choice but to work only with the sheet.

When reaching with genoa eased, you also want the trav as low as possible-as long as you can trim the mainsheet without closing off the leech-if this happens, then you might raise the trav slightly and ease sheet to create some twist.

But assuming you can tune the rig so that main is not overly deep, the better move is to lower the trav first, then ease sheet.

Does this help?
S

Sport boat racers - with large mains. I catch my self trimming the E28 main the same way given 99% of my sailing is on boats with very large mains. So far the boat responds well to the same approach.

As you get over powered you travel up and ease main - this induces twist at the top of the main - unloading the pressure higher up yet keeping the lower end of the main producing power, the boom stays as close to center line as possible. This depowers the boat but should still allow you to maintain a decent point. As the wind builds and you find your self flogging the top half of the main due to easing the main more to depower- now you need to shift gears travel down and trim in. If you travel down and ease - one of two things the wind has jumped greatly or - you probably had some main sheet ease left with the traveler in the up position.

The range between overpowered and flogging the main with the traveler down and main sheeted will be much narrower - the need to reef will happen faster if conditions continue to build given that traveling down and sheeting on is basically the last step in unloading the main. Traveling down and sheeting off (very little off sheet) will result in flogging hence the much smaller groove you have between being over powered and flogging the main with the traveler down.

The distance the traveler can run on the E28 isn't very far so I can see the traveler being adjusted more than other boats given you will need to shift from traveled up to traveled down - sooner if conditions continue to build.

 

[Seth]

2 schools of thought

No doubt you have found a style that works for you, the tune of your rig, and the shape of your main. There are a few classes where this works as well as with the more standard method-T-10's have the top part of the fleet split between trav/down sheet on- then off (after you run out of trav) and simply easing the sheet first from a less than fully lowered position (maybe midpoint).

Twist is created anytime you ease some mainsheet- regardless of where the trav is. There a VERY few racers of sport boats, or any modern race boats who actually raise the traveller as the breeze builds-at least not near the tops of these fleets (J 105, M 24, etc.), but I know there are some who do prefer, as you say, to twist the top off before lowering the trav all the way.

It is also posible to use leech tension with low trav (while having opened the angle of attack for depowering) to maintain pointing and it works as well as having the bottom part of the sail "working" with some trav partly up while twisting off the top sooner-both can work, but I think the majority of folks who do this are as I said before, compensating for an overly deep mainsail, or in the case of T-10's the differences are because some of the sail designs from some of the sailmakers require a very different rig tune than others-(less prebend, softer lowers), which makes "blading" the main with full backstay harder, and so they indeed have the trouble you describe so well with the trav all the way down. But most of the top boats with North or Doyle or Q sails (again this is all upwind sailing related) do not ease the sheet more than a few inches here and there for the purpose of depowering, preferring to play the trav up and down in the puffs as a quicker way to stay on theor feet while maintaining point, and then go for the big twist after they need even more depowering after having the trav low. Again the biggest difference is in that they are not actually RAISING the trav as they approach overpowering conditions, but moving for more sheet ease before going all the way.

The other thing on many modern boats is the need to really limit flogging the sail-which really hurts the life of the sail-the former approach helps with this.

Finally, reefing, especially on large mainsail boats (racing-not cruisng) is the very last thing you do-and only when you have run out of small jibs (already down to the littlest), and lead adjustment for the sail (lead full aft). Once you reef the main, you lose a huge amount of point (relative to those who do not), and in some types, rig support is compromised to some degree. Look at the tuning guides for the M24, J 105/109, B 36.7, and any Farr design (Farr 40, Farr 395), and Farr is almost fanatical about not reefing-it the case of the Farr 40, he insists no reefs until close to 40 knots TWS-more wind than I prefer to sail in with a full main, but with the right jibs and crew weight, it IS faster..

But at the end of the day, if it works for you for whatever reason, go with it.

You will find if you ask 10 sailors how to accomplish the same task, you will get 11 answers.

In applying this approach for the 28, my feelings come from sailing the prototype while I was working at the E-factory, later as a sailmaker, and now as one of the North U coaches (part time) teaching the syllabus. This does not mean the approach is definitively correct, but it is certainly the more typical approach, and has the credibiltiy of being used by more top sailors than not (for their boats). They are both legit methods for meeting this objective-based on the variables they deal with on specific boat/sail/rig combos..

Cheers,S

 

[ChrisS]

SF Bay Spinny Choice

Trent--

Congrats on you new boat.

Last year I went back and forth on getting an A-sail or a symmetrical for my 32-2. Since I decided that it took a larger crew and more gear to run the symmetrical, I had an A-sail made by Doyle in Alameda. With the ATN sock, it cost less than $2K. It's a crusing version and a smaller cut .75 oz. My boat's PO had a new main and jib made by Doyle a few months before I bought the boat, and they gave me the best price on the kite. (I got bids from UK, Hogan, and Doyle.) Most places around here knock 10% off the price in the winter.

It's been a great sail, especially in lighter winds of 5-10kts. The boat really goes on a reach, and two people can easily sail the boat up to 15-20 kt. of wind. Above that, it can get squirrely, depending on the wind angle. But I'm still getting used to trimming the sail, and my boat has a shallower rudder than yours. And I don't do any competitive racing.

I have noticed that DDW the A-sail is hard to fill (unless I take down the main). I took the boat up the Delta in June, and a symmetrical kite would have been a better choice for that trip. I've also noticed that I really have to think about wind direction in the tighter parts of the Bay. But since it's so easy to douse the sail, it's no big deal to use it multiple times a day.

Have fun with your new boat. September/October is a great time to be out on the Bay.

--Chris

 

[FullTilt E28]

1986 -E28 motoring speeds

Ok so finally put the through hull speedo in the water. I knew it was slow but I'm thinking the prop needs some work still. 2600RPM - 3.8 knots - 2900 rpm 4 -4.2 knots. Tad slow for my taste. The prop is new as of July - three blade fixed - guessing it might needs some tweaking still.

Curious what other people see for their E28 motoring speeds. I have the stock Universal Diesel which came back with an excelent bill of health. No heat issues runs like a champ. The prop on the other hand is leaving me wanting a little more bite.

 

[EGregerson]

E28 speed

I had an 1986 E28 for 6 years; my motor setup and performance was the same as yours. 4 kn in calm water. The universal 12 puts out 10 hp. I considered a 3 blade prop for backing; dropped the idea when i found they produce less power. I suspect the best power option would be a repower to 15 - 18 hp 3 cylinder; awfully expensive; and who knows what 'unforseen difficulties' would arise. Handling wise; it's a 28' 7500# boat; I'm not comfortable in gale force winds. Sailed in the conditions it was designed for, it does great. I really liked my 28; I miss it. The layout was spacious; great access to the drive train. Well built; and a head turner. Welcome to the club.

 

[Loren Beach]

Speed potential note

Since my prior 26 foot sailboat would do 5.8 kts all (windless) day long with 10 hp, I cannot imagine how an E-28 could not maintain 6 kts continuously... in smooth water, of course.
Atmittedly, more horsepower is really needed if you have to overcome waves and winds in an un-sailable situation like a confined channel.

Suggest that anyone not attaining this speed **recheck their prop pitch**, if the engine is running at rated cruising RPM's.

Loren

 

[FullTilt E28]

Motoring speeds -- info

I haven't had a chance to compare notes with a few different data sources on our E28 yet.

So far the initial through water speed at what appears to be full out was around 4.5knots.

But!!! Big but! I need to compare speed indications with my GPS and when I get a chance check over the RPM guage to confirm that all indicators are working as assumed. I do have a three blade prop and it wouldn't surprise me if the pitch still needs adjusting. Former owner said that this prop is way better than the old three blade but that doesn't nessisarily mean it is where it should be.

Also the other thing I may do is keep an eye out for a used folding prop and at the next haul out have the three blade replaced. Of course that all depends on the money factor - my ideal choice would be a new three blade feathering prop.

We continue to check items off our list - the electrical has been updated on the 1986 E28 - for two group 31 batteries - digtial volt meter installed in the pre existing analog meter location on the main panel. An additional and much cleaner circuit bar and mounting board was installed under the quarter berth between the slightly modified stock battery box and the power panel. This enabled the marine electrician to clean up the mess behind the panel a bit. We installed a Costco - digital 400wat two plug inverter ($29) next to the cabinet where we can plug various small items in - such as laptops - 15inch LCD flat screen on bulkhead- portable radio charger etc. Electrician was impressed with the little digital inverter mentioned he might pick one up.

We now have a asymetric cruising kite with sock and gear. We haven't flown it yet. - Engine water hoses are replaced - next I replace the white ribbed cockpit drain hoses and sink hose with good updated hose.

Then we take a break for a while and enjoy our mini cruiser. Guessing next year we'll update the backstay for adjustable system - possibly add a dodger and keep and eye out for a jib we can make into a 130% or one that actually fits from the start.

We've been having a blast with the boat - wife loves it so far lots of time has been put on it with friends and family.

 

[adavid]

E28 Motoring Speed

Our E28 motors at 5.8 knots at 2700 rpm's in calm water. We have checked it out against the GPS, and the knotmeter is right on. At that speed, it burns about a 1/2-gallon an hour. We have a 2-bladed prop, which looks to be original to our 1986 boat.

Add in some wind and waves, and the speed reduces quickly. A better engine for this would be a 15-18 hp model. But this engine does the trick and runs perfectly.

Andy