E27 "tall rig"

[dc27]

folks,

as mentioned in another post, i recently came into posession of a 1978 E27; it's in fine condition but for the sails, which were woeful. while i've been getting new sail quotes assuming the standard "P" value of 28, it occurred to me that i probably ought to measure to be sure. i took down the old bedsheet main and laid out on the dock, and was surprised when the luff measured around 29 feet (plus/minus i forget exactly). so we affixed a tape measure to the main halyard and hoisted it up, and darned if it didn't measure close to 31 feet from the toe of the boom to full hoist.

i had heard that a handful of the E27s came as "tall rigs" with P=30. nothing in the documentation that came with the boat (nor the comments from the broker, who admittedly was kind of a dope) indicated this was in fact a "tall rig." but the tape measure doesn't lie; did i stumble into ownership of the taller rig without knowing it? or do i just not understand the "P" value?

 

[Walter Pearson]

I'm no "P" expert, but looking in my records from when I measured my old sail in order to buy a new main, the luff measured 26 ft. 5.5 in. from eyelet centers. Even with the way my boom's gooseneck slides up or down, it sure wouldn't accommodate the length of your luff. I imagine your suspicion for a tall rig is correct.
Walter Pearson
E27 'Mejagay"

 

[Loren Beach]

Although never a sailmaker, I used to rep for one. The only truth in measuring the rig on any boat is that you *must* use the current measurments on that individual boat. Even boats certified to be sisterships will have slight unexpected differences, especially after more than 300 monthly pages have torn off the wall calendar. (!)

To further flog the deceased horse, also have a clear drawing or photo of the gooseneck fitting and tack point to take home, and ditto the outhaul.
Those "ball park" quotes you are getting will not take the place of the precise quote emanating from precise measurements.

To recap: a description of a rig for brochure or ad purposes does not trump the "tale of the tape."


I put the words "sail making" into the Search box above these message threads and got a bunch of great threads to study.
Here is just one:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4087&referrerid=28
There is a lot of relevant material here, including solid advice from a professional sailmaker.


Spend your sail $$ well, and wisely. You WILL be amazed at the result when you have the new one on your boat.

Cheers,
Loren in PDX

 

[dc27]

thanks Loren, your advice is excellent. i'm going to do my own measurements this weekend with the help of a friend who used to be in boat building.

one question i still have is in measuring the "E" distance along the boom. do you measure the presumptive distance between the eyelets on the sail foot, the total length of the foot, or something else entirely? how do you account for the outhaul, etc? or does the sailmaker account for that as they cut?

obviously i need to discuss this more with the vendor, but if anyone can offer general counsel, i'd really appreciate it.

 

[Seth]

Measuring

We have written about this at length- do a search for a more lengthy explanation, but the E is measured from the back side of the mast back to either the fwd edge of a painted or taped band (if there is one, and assuming it is properly located), or measure the published E distance from the back side of the mast, and this spot is the aft limit for the sail. If you don't know what the E should be for the boat, and you want to give the sailmaker an E dimension to build sails to, measure from the back side of the mast to spot about 1" fwd of the outhaul block. The sailmaker will then subtract for the tack fitting (usually about an inch), known as "tack setback", and will alllow some for stretch.

You cannot use sails to determine E because many times they were not built correctly to begin with, or they have stretched (dacron) or shrunk (composite fabrics).

A sailmaker will give 2 dimensions for the foot. The actual designed foot, which will be be the same as the E (and longer than the ring to ring length), and the "Cut" foot, which has the subtractions for the tack fitting and stretch allowance. Take a minute and search related posts-I have written a lot about this-much of it recently.

Cheers,
S

 

[dc27]

this is all very good information, and i thank you all again. i've got the "E" measurement settled (it is in fact 10) but now i'm getting confused about the "P."

basically, the official line in the manual is, "E27 Tall Rig P=30." but i've measured several times now (with other boat owners looking over my shoulder) and the P on my boat appears to be 31 -- and that's with six inches to spare! am i going to be inherently overpowering the boat by ordering a new main with P=31? the mast is easily tall enough to accommodate it (and then some).

 

[Seth]

P

I think the spec is 30', but there usually is space to spare. If you can have the bottom of the hayard shackle no closer than about 4" below the bottom of the halyard sheave, and still accomodate 31' I would go for it-unless you sail in a really windy area..The boat can use the power-but if you plan on any racing, you will have to declare an oversize main-so if racing is in the plans, stay stock, otherwiswe go for it..
S

 

[Annapolis E-27]

but is it the true "P"

I also sail an E-27 with a replacement Isomat mast. While my E=10 my P=28.5 and I=30.7. Do you have the original Kenyon mast?

 

[Mark F]

DC27

Is there evidence that someone slid the gooseneck down? I did that on my E23 mk1. The original gooseneck position was about 9' off of the cockpit sole ;-). I moved mine 12" lower If I remember correctly.

 

[dc27]

thanks for all the responses, guys! it's a great help, you have no idea.

seth: i sail on Puget Sound, cruising mostly. the racing i do is as a crew member on my friend's Viking 33; to the extent the E27 goes out on race day, the stakes will be for who buys drinks later. (my crowd is *way* informal; stock vs. mod is not a consideration at all.) as to the mast height, even hoisting the shackle 31 feet above the boom, there's still six inches of room before it hits the sheave. so maybe i will "go for it" with the long luff for more power.

annapolis: not sure if it's the original mast, there's no indication in the documentation that came with the boat. unless there's some nameplate or something on the mast, i have no way of knowing.

mark: i thought about the gooseneck too, but it appears properly placed relative to the slot opening for the luff slides. i didn't see any extraneous holes farther up, or anything else to indicate the boom has been moved down. but i'll look again tomorrow with this in mind.

i think this boat is simply a "voyage of discovery." fun so far!

 

[Seth]

Go for it!

Sounds like a plan!

 

[mjsiega]

Did the E27 Tall rig have a deeper draft? I'm still trying to figure out if the E27 came on another keel draft other than the 3'11" version. All ads for E27's that I have come across state 3'11", but the one I am interested in looks to be deeper and the onwer states the draft to be a little over 5 feet! A lot more than is possible with just loading the boat up with gear, etc. Any info on this would be much appreciated. Thanks.

-Mark

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

E-27 draft

Mark,
I've never heard of more than 3'11". I'd measure it rather than take someone else's word.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[Loren Beach]

Morgan is right, as usual. Measure that draft. I bet you find that, like all hulls with internal ballast, the draft is just what the builder sez it is.

However-- remember that most boats draw an inch or two more than the brochure states. Brochures are often finalized and marketing started before the real boats are launched and in use. (Especially in the pre-digital era.)
No matter how careful the designer does his calculations, the builder sometimes produces a package that weighs a bit more... and the subsequent owners have a habit of adding "stuff" to the insides to cart around... and the crew adds another 500# or more... and there you are. That is, you are aground in water 4 inches deeper than you thought that you needed.

Trimmed out, tanks emptied, and stripped of all the spare parts and cans of Dinty Moore, and all the old line coils and fenders removed, it probably might only draw 3' 11"

We used to be amazed at how much quicker our prior 26 footer was when we "de-junked" and "un warehoused" the interior and lazerettes for an evening of racing 'round the marks. Still have dusty trophies to show for it, too.


So measure and confirm your data.

Fair Winds,
Loren in PDX

 

[Mark F]

Any chance either of these "27's" are actually 26's (Bruce King designed).
Looks like the P on a 26 is 31' 6" and the draft can be 4' 11".

Do we have any specs here on the web site regarding the production runs of different models? I looked and couldn't find anything. It would be a helpful bit of information.

 

[dc27]

Mark -- that's an interesting theory! i know my boat is a 27, but now i'm wondering if Ericson used the same mast on both the 26s and the 27 "tall rigs." that would explain a lot!

anyone know if those lines were built contemporaneously?

 

[Loren Beach]

I believe that the masthead rig E-27 ended its long production run in the 70's, and the late-model E-26 was a completely new design done in the 80's and with a fractional rig. Same designer, but quite different boats.
Loren

 

[Seth]

Different animals

Impossible to confuse a 27 with a 25+/26 of more recent years..Totally different look-keel shape, mast, etc. If you boat looks very much like the 27 brochure on this site (and similar to a 29), that pretty much ends the discussion. The 25+ and 26 look nearly the same, have fractional rigs, and a very different look and shape.

Only one draft for the 27, BTW.
Cheers,
S

 

[dc27]

Impossible to confuse a 27 with a 25+/26 of more recent years.S

nor have i, esp. since mine clearly says "27" on the transom. :nerd: the question really went to whether the vessels used the same mast, which you've answered in the negative. thanks for settling that!

interestingly, despite all the extra vertical room (1.5 feet), the sail loft with which i'm consulting for a new main is dissuading me from going with any luff longer than P=30 for fear that it might "hurt the boat's performance." so i remain somewhat flummoxed by how to proceed.

 

[Seth]

Wtf???

I hate to disparage my sailmaking brothers, but can you at least tell me what town you are in and what the sailmaking company is?

I don't want you to go in and say this to them, but that is a strange comment to say the least.

The only possible negative is that you will have a "non-standard" sized sail. This could have a small implication if you were racing (and let someone know-but that would be the right thing to do), and theoretically some stickler might not give you full value for the boat/sail combo. But most folks, any knowledgable ones will appreciate the forward thinking of squeezing a few more feet of area onto the boat.

Now, if you had a boat that was already considered "powered up" in standard configuration (for E boats this would be the 28+/28, 30+, and RH 33), I would agree-the main is PLENTY big and nothing is gained by going an extra 6" or so.

But the 27-even the TR 27, is not exactly running a HEMI in the SA/Displ ratio (not saying it is bad, but it is not at this end of the spectrum)..

Are ya feeling it? Good!

Cheerz,
S:nerd: