E27 Holding Tank Replacement

[hcpookie]

I'm looking for info/pics/data on "the" factory holding tank solution for my 1975 E27.

I've searched here and elsewhere for "E27 holding tank" and "holding tank" and haven't found all that much...

Here's the scoop - on her (5 day) maiden voyage down the Chesapeake to her new berth in Old Point Comfort, the softside holding bag decided to spring a slow leak along the sonic welded seam. This was a slow leak, and took a few days to manifest.

My searches indicate the factory holding tank solution was a tank placed in the V-berth. Sometime over the past 30 years, this configuration has been modified. The holding bag was tucked against the hull, directly beside the toilet, and made for a really tight fit. Not fun to wrestle out while wet! Furthermore, the seawater inlet has apparently been bypassed so that a cheap freshwater tank was providing the supply (I can provide pics of the head space area).

After careful consideration, it seems that the most logical choice for a holding tank is to place it in the V-Berth, and run a longer hose. This is my plan "A", unless someone can provide a compelling reason otherwise.

It seems I'm going to have a bit of plumbing to do, because I cannot find any deck plate or other attachment that would allow me to pump out. Thus it appears I must either cut a hole to add one, *OR* snake the pump out hose through the porthole or top hatch. Would this be more logical since it means needing one less hole cut in my deck - ???

Questions:

- Does anyone have pics/diagram/info about the factory V-berth holding tank configuration? I'd really like to have a reference.

- Are there limits to sanitation hose length? I will need to add about 4-5 feet to the circuit... good/bad?

- What of using PVC pipe to minimize sanitation hose length?

- Is there a recommended hose routing for the bathroom sink drain? Is it wise to Y the sink drain into the holding tank inlet? Would draining the SINK ONLY to the bilge be a problem? Perhaps a 2nd holding tank for the sink grey water?

TIA,
- Jerry
E27 "Avanti"

 

[NateHanson]

I've always seen the sink drain led to the head raw-water intake. No problems that I've seen.

The only problem with longer sanitation hose runs is the possibility of standing sewage in the lines creating an odor permeation problem. Try to angle the run down towards the holding tank (if possible).

I'd definitely install a deck plate. The hole on deck is no problem as long as you seal the core, and bed the plate properly. Definitely better than a wildly swinging sewage hose flying about the cabin.

 

[dwigle]

My answers to your questions, while not exactly about an E27, may be of some help.

I don't have any specs on placement for the tank, but the PO of my 38 was able to get a replacement tank from the original supplier which fits perfectly. They might have specs on your tank, so you could determine original placement.

On hose length, I try to keep them short as possible, but a friend has a Pearson 34 which must have 10 ft plus runs. You just have to pump several times to move sewage completely through the hose. Buy the good hose, cheap hose is a waste of money as smell will soon come through.

I used PVC on my old boat which lasted at least the eight years we kept it. Just make sure to use enough hose to allow for flex, which all boats do. It's cheaper and makes sharp bends easier.

My old, old boat had the toilet fresh water plumbed from the sink drain, but required two ball valves, one to feed the toilet and the other to close the sink drain so the toilet wouldn't suck air from the sink, though a simple plug might have worked. Other boats have had a seperate through hull, as the sink drain was above the waterline.

Good luck,

Don Wigle
Wiggle Room
E 38 #8

 

[Emerald]

Hi Jerry,


Sorry to hear the tank split on you. A couple things. I dont think Avanti ever had any setup akin to the diagrams you have found. She was the way she was when I got her, and the lack of holes would be in keeping with a minimal installation, probably done as a retrofit to meet with changing discharge laws after she was built. Note that the portlight in the head has been modified with an opening one. I suspect that whoever did the holding tank install used this port as a way to snake the pumpout hose down to the hand pump on the other side of the bulkhead the tank is fastened to. Regarding the water source for flushing, don't be missled by it being "cheap". The objective is not to pump sea water into the holding tank. If you want to pump sea water into the tank (it will smell worse), all you need to do is utilize the existing seacock, which if I remember correctly, just has a plug in it. Replace the plug with a hose barb, and connect the seacock from the barb to the head intake, and you are done (you can even use the existing line to the fresh water jugs, just cut it down). The whole idea with the jugs of flushing water was that if you carried two jugs, and used both up, you were at tank capacity, and want to stop filling it. I didn't make a big deal about making the jugs fancy because I wanted it to be a five second change over to switch jugs (all you have to do is switch caps between the two jugs - leave the hose in the one cap if you follow. For simplicity, I'd recommend getting another bag type of tank for the same location, install a deck fitting, and take the discharge end (which was capped on the old bag), and run it to the deck fitting so you can use a standard pump out. All of the hose on the bag, including the long piece with the cap, is very high quality and expensive sanitation hose (cost me something crazy like $7 a foot), and it is only about 1.5 years old. Try to reuse as much as possible. The long piece with the cap in it probably would reach to a deck fitting if you position everything for the shortest runs.


Hope this makes sense. If you want a plastic tank, try contacting Ronco plastics (think they're in VA). They made holding tanks for many of the Ericsons. You will, however, have to do the V-berth route, and will have long runs.


In general, don't use PVC on a boat - there are a whole range of materials much better suited for marine use - I removed failing PVC pieces from Avanti as part of her overhaul (cracking and failing glue joints - have seen this on two other boats as well). If you need more sanitation line as you work through this, check this stuff out for good performance and price (it is different from what you've got on the tank currently):


http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...arch;ID;,Marine.Plumbing,Hose,Sanitation.Hose


The sink is already set to drain overboard via a seacock. Leave it that way. It is standard practice, it doesn't hurt anything, and draining the sink into the bilge or holding tank is a bad idea (want to keep the bilge dry, and adding extra fluid to a holding tank is just going to increase maintenance).



-David
Independence 31
Emerald


formerly E-27, Avanti

 

[bigtyme805]

I put a tank into my E-27 and I put it into the v-berth. I cut a hole in the deck above the head for pump out. This has worked for me and i have had no problems. The hoses are long but no big problem. I placed a Y valve so I can pump out at sea when I am doing a long stretch. If you dont have an air valve for the holding tank you will have to add one.

Good luck with this project.

 

[NateHanson]

I'd add two 3/4" holding tank vents. One on each side of the bow, or one facing forward, one facing aft on the same side of the bow.

Air flow is key to a non-stinky holding tank system!

 

[Emerald]

Jerry,


You have a vent currently installed in the head on Avanti. Follow the small diamater hose from the old bag and you'll find the fitting is located on the side of the cabin trunk.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald

formerly E-27, Avanti

 

[hcpookie]

Thanks all! I appreciate the input. David, perhaps "inexpensive" is a better choice of words

I researched a bit more and ABS (black pipes) are recommended over PVC for sanitation usage. Not sure whether I'd be better off with a flexible or rigid hose at this point, but I'll keep those flexible hoses in mind. At this point, no cost is too great, so long as I can prevent a repeat of that oh-so-sweet covered-in-pee experience. :eek:

And a deck plate sounds good since Nate's insight about a dangling hose sounds very unpleasant indeed!

Connecting the sink drain to the water inlet sounds like a great idea for me... I would assume the siphon action would be minimal to the point that I could keep the drain open during a weekend cruise - ? Dunno about plugging the drain after every use.

FWIW, the Raritan owners manual has a good diagram of hose layouts on their website. Looks like Ronco has the same info... I suspect other toilet companies have similar info too.

I think judicious use of ventilation, vent filters, and "green" tank treatments will be enough to offset the "extra" vapors from sea water for my usage. Old Point Comfort Marina has a full-service pump-out station... coupled with a brand-new tank and hoses, this arrangement should suffice for septic accumulation on typical weekender trips.

In fact, I read somewhere (long ago) about a BIY vent filter that was real simple - IIRC is was a section of PVC, two pipe ends, and granulated charcoal wrapped in cheesecloth stuck inline near the vent opening. Darned if I can find the info, however. If that worked, it would be cheaper than the $70 WM offerings, eh?


- Jerry

 

[gareth harris]

The holding tank discharge hose run in the 35 is over 10 ft long, so length, while minimum is good, is not absolutely critical.
The sink drain should not be connected into the holding tank system, as organisms can spread up to infect someone using the sink. Some original Ericson boats were set up that way. Connecting the pump inlet to the sink drain is OK (just needs an extra valve).
If you end up drilling an extra hole for the holding tank discharge (not ideal, but sometimes is the only way), make sure it is at least a few feet from any water intake.
Generally, 'how to build boats' type books tell you not to use PVC. The reinforced hose designed for sanititation is expensive but very effective.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Emerald]

[snip]

Connecting the sink drain to the water inlet sounds like a great idea for me... I would assume the siphon action would be minimal to the point that I could keep the drain open during a weekend cruise - ? Dunno about plugging the drain after every use.

[snip]

- Jerry

Hi Jerry,


Don't make this too complex. Your sink is already draining through it's own seacock. Keep it that way - it is best - you don't have to worry about all sorts of siphon issues, contamination etc. Regarding switching back to seawater for flushing, all you need to do is remove the plug from the 3/4 seacock I had caped, and put a barb on it, and then take the existing line that runs from the "flushing jugs" I was using and connect it to the barb you have just installed, and you're done. That way you'll have a dedicated water intake, with a seacock you can shut off for flushing the head, and you'll have a dedicated drain for the sink. This will require the least work, least cost, and IMO, is really the proper solution.


Please feel free to call me if you want to discuss this in more detail. Email me directly if you have lost my numbers.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald

formerly, E-27, Avanti

 

[Nick Reynolds]

Ericson Docs

Don't forget that this web site has the original installation diagram for the holding tank. It is not too clear, but it is usable with a little imagination!

I installed mine this way, and it works fine.

I tried to attach it, but it is too big.

 

[hcpookie]

Thanks, I found that doc - very informative! Page 6 is the way I'm going about it - the "simple" layout without the Y-valve installation. The gusher pump and Y-valve will just sit there, unused.

I finally settled on a Todd 20-gallon tank. It fits, but only with a raised platform I built from outdoor lumber & plywood. Gives me 5" clearance between the lid and top of the tank, and clearance around every side of the tank which provides unrestricted bilge drainage and should promote air circulation.

The boat came with a 15-18 gallon water tank that shares the storage area, and due to the tight fit of the two, I have no room to reach down to the original hose fitting locations. Therefore, I have decided to install 90-degree elbows after weighing the pros-cons of elbow usage on a holding tank.

To fit the hoses, I am using the Todd fitting relocation kit, two 90-degree elbows, AND the Todd holding tank thread adapters (hose barbs). The plan is to use the threaded flanges of the relocation kit 1.5" fittings, cut the hose barb from the top, and mate these to a (threaded) elbow. That will give me room to place the Todd threaded hose barbs exactly in the position I require.

Todd's packages recommend using "G&E Construction 1200 or 1201 Silicone" to seal the pipe fittings. Curiously, I can't find this anywhere locally or online. I did find a "recommended usage" info page about "Construction 1200" which indicated it is not to be used for "completely submerged" joints but "may" be suitable for aquariams (what a contradictory statement). Since I don't want to play trial-and-error with these joints, I'm going with 5200. To be frank, I want no leaks, ever. If the hose fittings ever do warrant replacement, I will either plug & drill a new hole, or simply replace the entire tank from scratch. Life's too short to worry about a leaky septic system!

I sincerely think this arrangement will work, known elbow issues notwithstanding, and will provide the additional benefit of easily-accessible hoses for monitoring and replacement purposes. It goes without saying that religiously-proper flushing & pump-out rinsing will be of the utmost importance. I've read a great deal of endorsements about those enzyme-based holding tank / septic system odor neutralizers keeping buildup to a minimum, so I plan to use that too.

This may sound confusing, so I can post pics if you like...

 

[hcpookie]

She's looking good! I'm going to snap some pics later this weekend, but the connections (sealed with 5200) have held up well and all the pipes seem to work as advertised. I used plastic hose barbs from WM with the relocation kit elbows.

Let me tell you, that rigid Trident sanitation hose is a BIATCH to install! The hose barbs seem to dig in even if you lube the hose up with dish soap. Once the barbs gain traction in the rubber, there seems to be no way to remove them - cutting the hose may be the only way to replace them.

I had some septic tank treatment in my basement from my old house that I put in the tank for now. So far so good...

One thing about the Todd relocation kit - the inspection plate LEAKS around the O-ring!!! It is one of those standard ports (Barlow brand?)... one of my kayaks has the same port and it leaks around the O-ring as well. I must assume this design requires a thicker O-ring or tighter clamping force against the O-ring. There's nothing I could find on how to fix this, except to put an O-ring lubricant like silicone grease or vaseline or some other goop to make an airtight seal. This is on the top of the tank, so it shouldn't leak unless the tank is full and we're heeled over *real* far. Since that is not a likely situation, I am more worried that, not being water-tight, it would seep odor over time. Therefore, I spread some silicone lube over the O-ring and she seems OK. For now. Keeping an eye on that one.

I put some white rubber weatherstrip material (like for garage doors) between the hose and the bulkhead holes to prevent any chafe problems. Not that this rigid pipe would EVER move, but chafing is a bad thing.

Pics forthcoming...