E-38 Toe rail scuppers

[Ericsean]

My 1980 E-38 only has two openings in the fiberglass toe rail for scuppers, and I get puddling between them, on both sides of the boat. I have looked at photos of later models, and they appear to have 3 openings. Has anyone else noted this condition and possibly cut in another scupper in the toe rail? I have hull # 3, so I'm guessing this problem was identified and corrected in later models. Hate the idea of cutting through the deck joint, and having to remove the track to do a neat job!

 

[Glyn Judson]

Added toe rail scuppers.

Kevin, Let's see if we can persuade Marty to respond to your call for assistance so he can describe and show you what he did to remedy that same problem on his E31. Marty, you there? Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[rwthomas1]

Kevin,
I get the same puddling on my boat and its an '83. One scupper midships and one almost at the aftmost part of the toerail, puddling in between. I don't like the idea of drilling/cutting in this area either so I have let it go. I hate it though. Waterstains, debris and shmutz gathers there and looks nasty. Dunno why something so obvious and simple was missed in the design. RT

 

[Wind River]

this worked for me.



hopefully, the pics got attached

 

[rwthomas1]

Nice job Wind River. How did you do that? What hardware for the deck?
RT

 

[Ericsean]

Toe rail scupper

Hate to sound ungrateful after asking for help, but I think I'd rather drill thru the toe rail, an an angle, then seal with epoxy, rather than introduce possiblitly of taking water below deck when that smale hole clogs, or drain outlet is underwater when heeled.

Guess I'm answering my own question on how to take care of it.

 

[Ericsean]

Dodger/Bimini

Wind River

I love that set up you have for the Dodger/ Bimini combo. I assume you have enclosures to use all those snaps I can see to close everything up.
Did you have some one make that up for you?

 

[rwthomas1]

Hate to sound ungrateful after asking for help, but I think I'd rather drill thru the toe rail, an an angle, then seal with epoxy, rather than introduce possiblitly of taking water below deck when that smale hole clogs, or drain outlet is underwater when heeled.

Guess I'm answering my own question on how to take care of it.

That is assuming the toerail is solid. What happens if the toerail is a shoebox style and now you have drilled through three layers of glass, with possible air gaps between layers? Can anyone confirm that the toerail is in fact solid? If not, the drilled hole would need to be sleeved, etc. to seal correctly. RT

 

[Wind River]

drainage holes

I thought about going thru the toe rail too but thought I'd have better luck with the cosmetic surgery going this route. Also, don't know about your boat but mine already had a stock drainage system behind the electrical panel for the port side vent/dorade/ for the aft cabin that I don't use. So, I just re-purposed that side thru hull drain. Only had to drill a hole behind the wine rack on starboard. I suppose you could just tee into another thru hull, too. Really did not like seeing my stanchion bases constantly under water. Never have had these holes plug up in 6 years. Even if they did, there would just be another puddle on the deck.

 

[Neil Gallagher]

Hi folks. My 381 has toerails holes drilled as scuppers as best as I can tell. To Rob's point it looks like perhaps they are sleeved. This was done by a PO. They do keep water off the deck. I'll take a few pics and send to the site.Neil Gallagher84 e-381Waypoint

 

[Dan Morehouse]

I wish all I had to worry about was the puddle. The one on my starboard side sits right on a series of gel coat cracks that have admitted water to the core of the deck. This water eventually finds its way into the cabinet behind the stove, where it wets the contents. There is some rotten core there, and cutting a new scupper hole thru the toerail is going to be the easy part of this project...even if I have to plug up any hollows that may be part of the toerail.

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[Dan Morehouse]

hollow toe rail

By the way, while working on a new anchoring setup, I removed the cheesy GRP pan and now have access to the entire void foreward of the V berth. The very point of the bow where the factory bow roller is mounted is a triangular pad the same height as the toe rail, and forms into the toe rail itself. This section appears to be solid glass; 7 bolts pass through it to mount the bow roller. The toe rail then breaks for the foreward cleats, and resumes just aft of them...and THIS section of the toe rail is hollow. I can only assume that the rest of it is too, so when I cut through it to provide another scupper I will be prepared to glass shut the sides and the bottom of the cut, and gel coat to finish. I do not plan to remove the sail track to do it, and I do expect it to be a PITA large enough to require many Ibuprofen. But my aim is to produce a trapezoid shaped scupper to match the two existing ones. We shall see.

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[rwthomas1]

Dan,
I have a wet core issue I just found up in the bow. I'm guessing that the anchor pan and the hole drilled for the anchor locker hatch catch have been admitting water. The "cheesy" pan will have to come out, and hopefully I will be able to do a re-core from the underside, I don't want to mess with the deck.... I am also talking to a professional I know about subcontracting the glass work. I'm curious to hear about your "anchoring setup" Windlass maybe? I'm leaning very hard in that direction if I have to tear into the bow anyway.

Regarding the hollow toe rail, a solution may be to see if you can fill the toe rail from the back side BEFORE you make any cuts! I thinking epoxy thickened to peanut butter consistency with structural filler, mashed into the hollow toerail from below, then drilled/cut/etc. would do it.

RT

 

[Dan Morehouse]

Rob...yeah, fill the toerail before the cut. Hadn't thought of that, but I'm sure glad you did. Come to think of it, I have not actually seen where the leak comes through from underneath, but I will have to access it if I intend to work from below.

The hole will have to be centered between two of the sail track fasteners, and any thickened epoxy placed from below will have to be mushed into place while avoiding the nuts on the sail track bolts. And you can bet I will be careful, because while removing the nuts on the bow roller bolts, I discovered that resin had been slopped on the threads. Between filing grooves on the bolt threads and bad wrench access, it took four hours to remove all 7 bolts.

I think it more likely that your water entry point is the hatch catch hole than the pan edges. The pan flange is screwed through a thin, but solid fiberglass lip. That catch bolt appears to penetrate an area that could allow water in, though. I cut my pan out with a jigsaw while leaving the pan flange still in place. It was easier than trying to pry the flange loose from the fiberglass deck lip.

I am installing a windlass and new bow roller to mount a 45 lb Manson. I am configuring the installation similar to the way it was done on Mark Reed's E-38. He posted a link on this site to some pictures of the install, which was done by a PO. I am going to figure out how to post pictures and post shots of the entire project as I go.

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[Loren Beach]

That darned bolt

Hey Rob, I bet the same guy was still working there in '88 when my boat was built. When I removed the trim and vinyl up overhead in our fore peak to refinish the teak trim I found out where the occasional water had been leaking in... for years...

That hole drilled into the side of the rim of the anchor locker well for the slide bolt went right into the balsa core. Lucky for me it also went partly thru the bottom layer of glass and allowed the water to drip harmlessly (well, sort of) into the interior. Balsa never got saturated.

While I had the anchor lid out for some re-glassing around the hinge holes and the section where the bolt slid back n forth, I over-drilled that hole a little bit.
Once the lid was back on, the inside underneath part of the deck had some layers of cloth epoxied on. Then I wrapped the end of the ss bolt/pin with Saran wrap, filled the hole up with thickened epoxy and shot the pin in all the way and let it cure.
Next day I removed the plastic wrap and all the blue tape around the edges, and it's been fine for a decade.

Loren

 

[rwthomas1]

The glass guy I know likes to use Nidacore as a replacement coring material. If his price is reasonable I'll let him do it. Dan, what windlass did you go with? I'm planning on making the V-berth bulkhead watertight, building a floor in the forepeak space to create an anchor locker above the water line. Think modern Catalina, etc. setup. The whole silly pan is going away. Likely I will do the dirty work of removing interior trim, cutting out what needs to be removed and then letting the glass man do his thing. Then I'll cut the windlass in and wire it up. Chances are I'll need a custom anchor locker hatch. Loren, I've wondered about that locker handle bolt hole for a long time. I'm pretty sure thats the issue as well. Could also be the cleats, pulpit, etc. though. Either way its gotta come apart so it'll get fixed. RT

 

[Glyn Judson]

Where to put the bottom of the anchor locker.

Rob, If it fits your plans and especially given that you're on fresh water, I thought I'd share with you how the anchor locker was configured in our former boat, a lovely 1979, E25+. The factory-built locker extended to slightly above the waterline and by slightly I mean mere inches, if that (fading memory doesn't help here). A 3/8" hole or thereabouts was drilled smack dab in the center of the bow completely through the hull and into the very bottom of the locker. Any water making its way in there while under sail soon drained right back out but the real advantage was that any water brought into the locker by the ground tackle being retrieved would also eventually drain out allowing the locker to dry out all the sooner. Glyn

 

[rwthomas1]

Rob, If it fits your plans and especially given that you're on fresh water, I thought I'd share with you how the anchor locker was configured in our former boat, a lovely 1979, E25+. The factory-built locker extended to slightly above the waterline and by slightly I mean mere inches, if that (fading memory doesn't help here). A 3/8" hole or thereabouts was drilled smack dab in the center of the bow completely through the hull and into the very bottom of the locker. Any water making its way in there while under sail soon drained right back out but the real advantage was that any water brought into the locker by the ground tackle being retrieved would also eventually drain out allowing the locker to dry out all the sooner. Glyn

Glyn,
Fresh water??? Only in the water tanks my man. I sail Narragansett Bay and beyond here in good 'ole New England. Its salty, I've tasted it! What you describe is exactly what I have in mind only the drain hole will be on one side of the hull, a couple of inches above the waterline, and with a Perko clamshell over it pointing aft-wards so that it does not fill with water while underway. I've seen lots of setups like this and they appear to work splendidly.
RT

 

[Dan Morehouse]

windlass

Rob, my windlass is a Lewmar Pro 1000. This is a horizontal windlass; the whole unit mounts on deck.

I've got my new bulkhead cut and ready to install; it is triangular and will define a new locker whose bottom is about 6" below the existing drain hole in the stem. I plan on drilling a new hole right at the new bottom point, which will result in two drains. The new hole will still be a foot or more above the waterline.

I plan on glassing in the new bulkhead this weekend. Will also be glassing as necessary around existing bulkhead sections to make the anchor locker watertight from the V-berth, and I will take pictures and post them as soon as I can after.

By the way, what is Nidacore? I'm not familiar with that.

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[rwthomas1]

Dan,
Looking forward to the pics! Nida-core is a synthetic honeycomb core material. Never rots and is unaffected by water. http://nida-core.com/english/

RT