E 38-200 Rudder Drop

[Kerry Kukucha]

Hello All:

OK, so I have finally figured out this boating thing! One does not actually get to do much sailing – it’s all an excuse to have a list of never-ending projects & the joy is in the puttering?!

Having overcome recent mechanical woes on Nakesa, we have now determined that our rudder needs to be replaced due to water ingress, sun exposure & freeze/thaw (having been stored on the hard) & as a result, one side has developed a pronounced wave – have been in touch with Foss & their price for a new rudder is pretty good, in particular if the existing shaft/post is in good shape & can be re-used.

So………, I will be dropping the rudder this weekend & would welcome any advice or thoughts ya’ll may provide (I’ve reviewed numerous related threads).

With our 38-200 (1988), which has an Edson quadrant, I think the process will be:
1) quadrant - loosen 2 outside perimeter bolts & 4 bolts around the shaft/post (& support quadrant pre-drop) – all bolts have already been liberally lubricated & fortunately, there appears to be no corrosion. Am I correct in assuming the quadrant does not have to be fully removed?
2 remove larger bolt that goes through shaft
3)lower rudder
4) remove 3 bolts holding brass flange & prepare to re-pack with 5/16” stuffing (per manual)
5)measure post vs. flange diameter for possible addition of brass shims
6)Reverse the procedure for re-installation.

Boy, this looks pretty easy? (provided I can become a contortionist whilst crawling in the aft locker) – what have I missed? What might go wrong?

Many thanks for wisdom shared!

 

[WBurgner]

Two Person Lift

Kerry, Be prepared for the weight. The rudder and shaft (dry) must be about 80 pounds, as I recall, and it is an awkward shape.

I hope it all goes well.

 

[Brookelise]

Rudder post drop

We just dropped the rudder on our Ericson 34 and added a bronze shim around the rudder post (.008" thick from McMaster.com -- part no. 9020K42). The quadrant needn't be removed to drop the rudder. Just loosen all the bolts you've mentioned. You can tie it up so that it doesn't fall after you've dropped the rudder and removed the spacer above the rudder packing gland (to open up the packing gland). Use a line to tie it up from above.

Before you drop the rudder, you should also loosen the steering cables around the quadrant -- two sets of double nuts -- and loosen the three packing gland bolts. Make sure you put something under the rudder to support it before you remove the large bolt that goes through the quadrant and shaft (a stack of boards, for example, so you can lower the rudder slowly). It might be better to loosen the four bolts in the quadrant after you remove the large bolt through the shaft; otherwise it can be hard to get the large bolt out with the weight of the rudder on it. (You don't want to have to hammer it out and wreck the threads.) If you take this bolt out first, the rudder will drop after you loosen the four bolts in the quadrant. The photo below shows how it looks on our Ericson 34, with the packing gland, spacer and then the quadrant.

When you raise the rudder again with the shim, make sure someone is in the aft locker to guide it through the spacer and quadrant (or the quadrant will get pressed against the top of the aft locker). You can use a small car jack to ease the ruddeer up slowly. The shim can bind at the bushing (especially if you use Teflon instead of bronze), so you can add a clamp at the top of it to keep the shim tight against the rudder post as you raise the post. Keep lowering the clamp as you raise the post. Below right is a photo of the bronze shim around the rudder post, covered with grease, with the clamp tight around the top. Teflon didn't work for us because it couldn't get past the bushing without binding and tearing. Bronze went up easily.

We used 3/8" Teflon flax packing for the packing gland. That's what Edson recommended for our particular packing gland. You'll see when you open yours up what size might fit. According to the manual (thanks Tom M. for pointing this out), our packing gland is the Edson "stuffing box/bearing" No. 697, 3 1/2" wide.

 

[rwthomas1]

On my E38 the quadrant is a YS unit but its all the same really. Remove any fasteners that hold the quadrant on, loosen the packing and the rudder will drop free. I just dropped the rudder enough to take the packing apart, lube it all and mess with the quadrant, etc. while installing the autopilot. Other than having very little room to work its not too difficult. Enjoy! RT

PS, can I ask what Foss wants for a rudder? How long will it take? TIA...

 

[John Butler]

Another E38 Rudder Drop

I thought I should add to one of the existing threads. The rudder on my 1982 E-38 needs to be rebuilt/replaced. I have a quote for doing a rebuild in place. However, it is more than the cost of a replacement rudder from Foss. Also, I don’t know yet if there is significant corrosion damage to the post pieces that extend into the rudder. So it seems like it might be best to replace the rudder.

Problems before I begin are:
The bulkhead between the stern lazarette and the area under the cockpit is not removable (I will need to cut something out and make it removable).
There is a hot water heater directly in front of the rudder post tube that I would rather not remove to do the work.
I am 6’ 3” tall, and although fairly skinny and flexible, there are limits to how much I can bend.
I’m going to find it hard getting where I can work on the rudder post assembly! It was much easier to reach my arm in to take the photos below then it will be to do the work.

Also, I have a shoal draft model, currently on the hard. There is less than a foot of clearance below the rudder over asphalt. So, I will need to have the boat lifted in order to remove the rudder once I have it fully disconnected and then go through the boat lifting process again to install the new rudder.

I want to make sure I have a good sense of the job before tackling it (detect some hesitancy there?). I do not have the large spacer shown in the above photos. I’ve uploaded some photos of my boat. There is only a thin ring above the packing gland which the quadrant sits on (probably the same as Rob describes). From Kerry’s post above, it seems I need to loosen the bolts on the quadrant in order to drop the rudder. It is not sufficient to remove the large bold that is through the quadrant and post. Is that correct? I guess that is the rudder post I see in the space between the deck flange and the quadrant. Any ideas that that gray matter is on the post? I’ll have to remove it to get the post to slide down through the quadrant center. It doesn’t look easy to get at the packing gland unless I remove the quadrant. Can I just leave it alone?

I'd appreciate any input from those of you who have had experience with this project.

Thanks,
John

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

John,

IIRC you will want to split the quadrant and remove the bolt that passes through the post. You may be able to get away with simply loosening the bolts that hold the two halves of the quadrant together but I seem to recall it was pretty easy to just undo them all, loosen the packing gland and slide the whole rudder down and out. Where are you hauled at? I'm 5'5" and even skinnier than you, maybe for some rum I may be able to lend you a hand one day....

BTW did the guys from Chesapeake Rigging get your lazy jacks squared away? My friend Quinn called me a few weeks back wanting to check out the setup on Escape Plan. Hope you guys are well and we see you soon.

 

[tenders]

I can't help on the scope of this project as my E32 is tiller-steered.

However, like you, I also found the Foss complete replacement to be less expensive than any other yard's rebuild. I checked Dencho Marine in Long Beach (a very impressive and responsive place; see Jim McCone's referral elsewhere here) and Derecktor Shipyard in Mamaroneck, NY.

The tiller version of the E32 doesn't have a rudder stop, and every year at least once it seems the tiller goes hard over and makes a sickening crunch, which isn't good for its structural integrity.

As a result I have been patching up my rudder for years, but last year on the hard the amount of grinding I did...and the extent of the water continuously oozing out despite the boat not going into the water at all last year...and the destruction of any semblance of an airfoil shape...completely overwhelmed my patching quotient. I ordered a replacement from Don Proul this morning, a refined design from the original with a bit more depth and which is less swept-back in keeping with modern rudder fundamentals.

The old rudder looks like h3ll, with rusty cracks spiderwebbing over 2/3 of the rudder and evident through my various translucent epoxy and fiberglass repairs. Yesterday I was poking around/hacking it up to see if I wanted the complete replacement from Foss, or if I should excavate the old rudderstock, and have them build their (new design) rudder around that and save about $400.

I didn't get much of the foam off the rudderstock. I cut along the rudderstock on both sides with a Fein saw knockoff (Harbor Freight's finest $40 tool) that has about 1.5" depth and didn't run into any of the fingers that supposedly go into the rudder.

There was a visible dimple in the rudderstock where the boat most likely hit something at some point, but it isn't serious.

A lot of the foam I dug out looked pretty solid, all considered. But even after being out of the water for 12 months, despite there being plenty of bare surface area to encourage dessication, lots of the foam is still wet. Where it was still wet, the layers of fiberglass I'd built up weren't sticking. I already suspected this, though, because those areas sounded kind of hollow while sanding them.

I tried to break some pieces off by stomping on the edges of the rudder with absolutely no success. The spiderwebbing, etc. does not seem to indicate cracks all the way through the rudder. Even with the giant areas sanded down with the grinder, and the 1.5" cut running up and down both sides of the rudderstock, it's still pretty darn strong.

I hacked away at the foam in the worst area of the rudder (the after lower quarter) and managed to slice off a paperback-sized chunk. The water damage is well-contained because the foam doesn't wick moisture. However, lots and lots of places I couldn't see otherwise were wet. The wet foam has the consistency of wet packed sand and it's in random places all over the rudder. Further patching would be utterly fruitless.

My conclusions are:

* The rudder wasn't about to break apart. But who knows how long before it would.

* It will take many hours to hack off the rest of the foam from the existing rudderstock. I don't see much of a benefit in spending a lot of time doing this. The stock appears to be OK, not perfect, and the incremental cost savings vs. the incremental effort, the "just OK" result if I recycle the old stock, and the possibility of a surprise just doesn't seem like a good tradeoff.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Tenders why cant you install rudder stops? Normally a piece of 3/16 dyneema is all you need. Sounds like without some form of a stop you might be back again witht he same problem in a few years?

 

[tenders]

Yeah, I realize I need rudder stops. I have not seen them though on a tiller-steered boat.

For the past few years I've run a thick strip of 5200 down the rudder and down the hull where they bump to act as an adhesive fender. Acceptable results; not great. I was going to epoxy strips of G10 to the new rudder to reinforce the contact point.

What's a better way? All I see on McMaster-Carr under "dyneema" is cut-protection gloves.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Tenders I am not familiar with the layout of your cockpit so maybe post a photo to help but:

You should be able to attach a length of 3/16 dyneema (single braid line often sold as Amsteel) to the tiller itself say a few inches forward of the rudder post. Then attach the other end to a padeye on the cockpit sole. Make the line short enough so that the slack runs out at max desired rudder angle.

Is there access to the rudder post below decks? If so then you could attach an arm to the rudder post and affix your dyneema to the end of it secured to the underside of the cockpit for a much cleaner approach. This is the ideal solution but may not be available to you.

Lastly you could attach the dyneema to the upper aft corner of the rudder itself and then the other end to the transom. This is the method used on a lot of old clippers but probably not so ideal for your boat.

 

[family man]

I just replaced my rudder on a C&C 36. Got a new rudder from Finco in So. Cal. Very happy with the new rudder.
We did the job with the boat in the water- which is another story.

My main advice is to remove EVERYTHING that is in the way. I took out my fuel tank, hot water heater and fuel tank bed. I did this one piece at a time.

It was hard to get the quadrant off, but finally having everything out of the way made it much less difficult, and ultimately saved time.

 

[rwthomas1]

John Butler,
I am not a small person either but I was able to get into the E38 despite being a bit claustrophobic. Heres how you do it:

-Remove the water heater. Yes, its a pain but here are a few tricks. Procure plugs and a short length of hose of the same ID as the coolant loop in the heater. Loosen the clamps on the coolant hose connections and prepare the plugs and short hose. The idea here is you are going to separate the coolant hoses, plug them immediately, and then slip the short hose over the two nipples on the heater. This will minimize the coolant loss and resultant mess.

-Disconnect electrical power from the heater, three wires, very simple, make sure the breaker is off especially if you are plugged in! Drain the heater and disconnect the water lines, remove fasteners and get heater out of the way. I drain/bypass my heater in winter, if you do too, thats one less step. Its really just 4 hoses, one wire and some fasteners. Then up and out into the cockpit.

With the heater removed you will be able to lie with your head facing the stern, legs in a sorta fetal position, or stretched out over the engine, your choice, in the space behind the engine. The quadrant will be right in front of your face. I place two flotation cushions under my lower back to level out the area just forward of the water heater mounting pad. YRMV.....

Before you start unbolting the quadrant place blocking under the rudder and slide shims in to support it. The idea is to take all the weight of the rudder so that when you unbolt the quadrant it is not pinched and comes out easy. I recommend putting the tools you need in by the rudder tube BEFORE you wiggle in there, or have a helper that can pass you what you need. Since you are disconnecting the steering cables in this process this is a great time to inspect the cable/chain/sprocket.

Watch out, the quadrant is heavier than it looks and you don't want to drop it on your forehead so pay attention when that last bolt comes out. I recommend removing the nut on the large bolt that passes through the quadrant/rudder stock, but leaving the bolt in for now. Then removing the steering cables and then the four "clamping" bolts. The quadrant will now pull off the large bolt towards the bow, over your head. The large bolt and rear bit of the quadrant are last. If there is any rudder weight hanging on the quadrant this will be much more difficult. It make take a helper outside shimming up on the rudder while you watch to get it where you want it.

The large bolt or a piece of round bar stock, socket extension bar, etc. can be reinserted into the rudder stock to retain the rudder until the boat is lifted to remove it.

Its a pity you are on pavement, I dug a hole under my rudder to drop it!

RT

 

[windjunkee]

If you drop the rudder while its in the water, beware: The rudder floats. The shaft does not. Thus, when you have pushed the shaft down through the rudder tube and it clears the bottom of the hull, the rudder will invert very VERY quickly. It didn't hit me when I was in the water, but the trailing edge of the rudder banged the hull pretty hard and left a divot.
When putting the rudder back on, I used my feet to keep the rudder down and held the shaft in my hand as I guided it back into the shaft tube. It was fun ... really!

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA