i am experiencing some dirty exhaust fume stains on my transom. The engine of my E-38 is running fine. Fact is I just finished a 600 mile trip up to Lake Huron and back to my home port of Sandusky, Ohio where I motored for about 60 hours without incident. My engine is a universal M-40 with a primary Racor water separator 20 micron element and a 2 micron secondary fuel filter system. Lately I have noticed a bit of sludge in the sediment bowl of the Racor filter when I change the element ( every 50 hours or so). I do use an additive every time I fill up. My boat is a 1985. I have owned it for 6 years so I dont know if the previous owner had any problen with dirty fuel before . I dont know how much sediment is normal or if I even have a dirty fuel issue since the boat runs great However, I am thinking I should do one of three things to insure that I do have clean fuel: pump out all the fuel in the tank and clean the tank , or polishing the fuel by putting on a internal fuel polishing system, or polishing the fuel thru an external system. All alternatives are expensive. I need your help and advice as to how to proceed .
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Uhhg - contaminated fuel...I would think you would want to start with the tank and then work your way through the entire system...
//sse
//sse
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Considering that the only way to be sure that the tank is OK is to pump it out and clean it to its far corners, that would be my first choice. If your boat is still using the original supply and return tubing/hose, now would be an excellent winter to run all new hose. According to a diesel mechanic I know, those old hoses slowly crud up inside over the years. If the tank is good otherwise and does not have a cleanout port, have one added after you empty it.
Polishing fuel is a good thing, if... the tank is known to be clean inside and all you are trying to do is filter some bad diesel from a recent fill up, IMHO.
Opinions renedered on the hour.
Deposit .01 please.
LB
Been There Done That, Got The Hat
About ten years ago I had dirty fuel syndrome in LA PAZ, MEX. Had no problem with black smoke, just kept clogging fuel filters and starving the motor. Well I pumped all the fuel out then cut a 6" hole in the tank where I had a 2" hole from a prior fuel polishing. I not only found a growth all over the inside (even though I treated any fuel that went in) but in order to get to the whole tank and clean it I had to cut holes in the other 2 chambers. The tank is aluminum so I was able to make cover plates. All worked out fine. I did have a black smoke problem (not same motor) and getting the injectors rebuilt did the trick. We had about 2000hrs the motor and most of that was on 3rd world fuel.
good luck
SID & MANUELA
IN AND ON "PARADISE"
36C #51
About ten years ago I had dirty fuel syndrome in LA PAZ, MEX. Had no problem with black smoke, just kept clogging fuel filters and starving the motor. Well I pumped all the fuel out then cut a 6" hole in the tank where I had a 2" hole from a prior fuel polishing. I not only found a growth all over the inside (even though I treated any fuel that went in) but in order to get to the whole tank and clean it I had to cut holes in the other 2 chambers. The tank is aluminum so I was able to make cover plates. All worked out fine. I did have a black smoke problem (not same motor) and getting the injectors rebuilt did the trick. We had about 2000hrs the motor and most of that was on 3rd world fuel.
good luck
SID & MANUELA
IN AND ON "PARADISE"
36C #51
u079721
Contributing Partner
Can't help you with advice on the dirty fuel - which if you can see sediment is certainly a concern. But based on my thousand or so of engine hours on our E-38 (with the same M40) I would just point out that a dirty transom doesn't necessarily mean bad fuel. Our transom was ALWAYS dirty, even after fresh clean fuel and engine tune ups. About the only thing I found that helped was PRI-D Diesel fuel treatment, which sure seemed to lessen the amount of soot on the transom.
A fairly simple fuel polisher can be made using a high volume automotive fuel pump like a Holley Blue pump and a large Racor like a 500 or 900 series. Set the pump up to suck through a hose/wand assembly and pump through the filter and then return to the tank. The wand/hose can be inserted through the sender opening if there is no cleanout/access port in the tank. A clubmember made one of these and it works well. The pickup and return line can be moved around to agitate the tank. Granted, a higher pressure/volume pump would work better but that is for the professional tank polishing services.
FWIW, when I replaced the original tank in my E38 there really wasn't much crud in the old one. Just a bit of tar discoloration and just a bit of sediment. I was surprised.
Dirty fuel would be plugging up filters and shutting the engine down. Doesn't sound like dirty fuel to me.
Lastly, the transom on my E38 also gets sooty when we have motored a bit. If you want a serious reduction in soot then try running biodiesel or a biodiesel blend like B20. B20 will reduce smoke by 80% or so.
RT
FWIW, when I replaced the original tank in my E38 there really wasn't much crud in the old one. Just a bit of tar discoloration and just a bit of sediment. I was surprised.
Dirty fuel would be plugging up filters and shutting the engine down. Doesn't sound like dirty fuel to me.
Lastly, the transom on my E38 also gets sooty when we have motored a bit. If you want a serious reduction in soot then try running biodiesel or a biodiesel blend like B20. B20 will reduce smoke by 80% or so.
RT
Rob, hey I like your idea for a simple fuel polishing system. I think after I get the boat out for the winter I will give it a try. Ive talked to some of my friends here in Ohio who have had their tanks pumped out and cleaned. They have told me that the disposal fee for the old fuel is about $600 for one 55 gal drum. I have been using and not replacing my fuel to get the amount in the 60gal tank down to minimize cost. But your idea sounds right up my alley, thanks
bigtyme805
Member III
Out here in Santa Barbara there is a guy that has this big machine that he rolls around like a fridge. He is known as the Fuel Polisher! Charges roughly about $250 to polish your fuel. It takes about 2 hours to do the job. Boaters in the harbor swear by him, I am sure you have something like that in your area.
Quick story: Guy hasn't run his engine in 2 years has 3/4 of a tank of diesel and has no additives in there. Has the fuel polished, takes 3 1/2 hours because he keeps clogging tank, growth all over. Worker says to him are you sure it's only been 2 years and he says "well now that you mention it maybe it's been 4 years." Needless to say his engine has been running fine for the past year, no problems.
Quick story: Guy hasn't run his engine in 2 years has 3/4 of a tank of diesel and has no additives in there. Has the fuel polished, takes 3 1/2 hours because he keeps clogging tank, growth all over. Worker says to him are you sure it's only been 2 years and he says "well now that you mention it maybe it's been 4 years." Needless to say his engine has been running fine for the past year, no problems.
Gary Peterson
Marine Guy
I wouldn't use additives in diesel fuel. Most diesel engine manufacturers do not recommend them as they are detrimental to injector life.
The sludge grows between the fuel and water interface. Most important point is to make sure there is no water in your fuel tank. The new Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel that alot of marinas are selling will clean up your exhaust somewhat. (This DF also has an additional lubricant added to make up for the lost lubricity of the ULSDF.)
Propper prop matching is very important as a diesel engine that is non-turbo'd will smoke more when overloaded and not able to reach max RPM.
The age old adage that a diesel engine has to be run hard and hot is very true.
The sludge grows between the fuel and water interface. Most important point is to make sure there is no water in your fuel tank. The new Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel that alot of marinas are selling will clean up your exhaust somewhat. (This DF also has an additional lubricant added to make up for the lost lubricity of the ULSDF.)
Propper prop matching is very important as a diesel engine that is non-turbo'd will smoke more when overloaded and not able to reach max RPM.
The age old adage that a diesel engine has to be run hard and hot is very true.
From what I know about diesels and diesel fuel the ULSD being sold now is very "dry" compared to the older higher sulfur diesel. New technology diesels have no trouble with ULSD but old engines, especially those with rotary or VE style injection pumps, have trouble with the much lower lubricity in ULSD. While I would agree that overuse of additives to kill bacteria or remove water is not wise, the blanket statement that additives are bad for engines is not true either. Engine manufacturers don't like the idea of additives as they have no control over each and every product sold, the frequency and volume of treatment, etc. and so they don't like to warranty or recommend their use. The reality is that diesel fuel can vary substantially in quality and contamination. There are some very good additives that increase lubricity, which is good from some of our older engines and also help to improve cetane, deal with small amounts of water, reduce smoking, keep injectors clean, etc. RT
Gary Peterson
Marine Guy
The new ULSDF is not detrimental to older engines. The refiners have to add lubricants to it, if memory serves me right-by the government. The newer engines (2007 and forward) use injectors and nozzle holder assemblies that have very tight clearences that were unheard of, even 5 years ago. (For emmisions.)
If one uses a water emulsifyer to get rid of water this can cause injector and nozzle holder tips to blow their tips from the expanding steam mixed with the fuel spray. Primary filters are very good in doing this very important job.
A good #2DF with a Cetane value of around 43 is quite sufficient.
(I retired from Detroit Diesel as a technical service engineer and am still doing marine application engineering in VA until I retire in December.)
If one uses a water emulsifyer to get rid of water this can cause injector and nozzle holder tips to blow their tips from the expanding steam mixed with the fuel spray. Primary filters are very good in doing this very important job.
A good #2DF with a Cetane value of around 43 is quite sufficient.
(I retired from Detroit Diesel as a technical service engineer and am still doing marine application engineering in VA until I retire in December.)
Gary,
I can understand your position, I just don't happen to agree completely with it. I'm what you might refer to as a diesel enthusiast. I have torn down VW, Mercedes and GM diesels completely for rebuilds and spent some time in another life building drag engines for fun. I own and drive only diesels just because I like them. That said, I am also a member of other web boards just like this for those three other manufacturers and this debate rages on those boards too. There are also individuals with similar credentials to yours on both sides of the debate there as well.
My take on it is this: I simply don't trust what the oil companies/government/etc. has to say on the topic of ULSD being completely safe for older diesels. Thats what they said about Ethanol in unleaded and we know how well that went in the marine industry. Two cycle engines are being phased out for emissions reasons. Supposedly the E10 is okay for two cycles as well but I know of quite a few that have had problems. Search some of the Landscaping boards and you will find that the professional landscapers are loosing equipment to it. This is how the "authorities" take care of things?
I have yet to see a fuel pump with a cetane number higher than 40 around here. My Mercedes and GM truck with burn almost anything however I can prove that additives that increase cetane to above 45 will also improve my mileage by 1.2mpg in the MB and 1.1mpg in the truck. The engines just run better when on the juiced fuel.
I understand your cautions regarding new diesel technology and how an emulsifier can cause issues with injector tips, etc. The bottom line is that clean fuel is more important than ever. More and bigger filters are always a good thing. I fail to see however that using an additive like Stanadyne Performance Formula or Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat is going to hurt any older diesel. The fuel companies supposedly mix enough anti-gel additive in for the winter months. Why is it then I have had to rescue most of my friends when their diesels gel up in winter? Obviously the fuel was not blended correctly. I trust these same folks to make sure the correct lubricity additives are added? That the fuel is not contaminated with whatever was in the tanker, pipe, etc. before it? Sorry, don't trust them. I have NEVER, not once, had a fuel related problem. Is this the additives? Can't say for sure. I am very careful to only purchase fuel from high volume stations and I fill my boat with jerry cans. Maybe I'm just lucky and wasting my money on the additives. I'm still alright with that as its peace of mind to me.
Just my 2cents, RT
I can understand your position, I just don't happen to agree completely with it. I'm what you might refer to as a diesel enthusiast. I have torn down VW, Mercedes and GM diesels completely for rebuilds and spent some time in another life building drag engines for fun. I own and drive only diesels just because I like them. That said, I am also a member of other web boards just like this for those three other manufacturers and this debate rages on those boards too. There are also individuals with similar credentials to yours on both sides of the debate there as well.
My take on it is this: I simply don't trust what the oil companies/government/etc. has to say on the topic of ULSD being completely safe for older diesels. Thats what they said about Ethanol in unleaded and we know how well that went in the marine industry. Two cycle engines are being phased out for emissions reasons. Supposedly the E10 is okay for two cycles as well but I know of quite a few that have had problems. Search some of the Landscaping boards and you will find that the professional landscapers are loosing equipment to it. This is how the "authorities" take care of things?
I have yet to see a fuel pump with a cetane number higher than 40 around here. My Mercedes and GM truck with burn almost anything however I can prove that additives that increase cetane to above 45 will also improve my mileage by 1.2mpg in the MB and 1.1mpg in the truck. The engines just run better when on the juiced fuel.
I understand your cautions regarding new diesel technology and how an emulsifier can cause issues with injector tips, etc. The bottom line is that clean fuel is more important than ever. More and bigger filters are always a good thing. I fail to see however that using an additive like Stanadyne Performance Formula or Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat is going to hurt any older diesel. The fuel companies supposedly mix enough anti-gel additive in for the winter months. Why is it then I have had to rescue most of my friends when their diesels gel up in winter? Obviously the fuel was not blended correctly. I trust these same folks to make sure the correct lubricity additives are added? That the fuel is not contaminated with whatever was in the tanker, pipe, etc. before it? Sorry, don't trust them. I have NEVER, not once, had a fuel related problem. Is this the additives? Can't say for sure. I am very careful to only purchase fuel from high volume stations and I fill my boat with jerry cans. Maybe I'm just lucky and wasting my money on the additives. I'm still alright with that as its peace of mind to me.
Just my 2cents, RT
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Steve Murray
Inactive Member
From the FWIW department - I bought my boat last spring in New Jersey. It had a brand new fuel tank and was filled from a delivery truck at he marina just before we left. Since I travelled inland back to Prince Edward Island, motoring was the norm. Over 200 hours on the engine - it hummed the whole way. Propellor pitching issues did, however, make the transom very sooty. Repitching made the soot go away.
Steve Murray
E35 III 222
Charlottetown, PEI
Steve Murray
E35 III 222
Charlottetown, PEI
clean fuel
My comment is more regarding the issue of keeping the fuel clean, than about the original discussion of the source of black exhaust.
I am not the diesel expert that others are, but I am utterly convinced that microbes are NOT the source of dirty fuel and tanks.
The culprit is ASPHALTENE, which is present in all diesel fuel, and precipitates out of the fuel over time. It then forms a slimey deposit on the bottom of your fuel tank.
If you bounce around in the waves, it is kicked back into suspension in particulate form, and then proceeds to clog your filters.
I pay 250 bucks every 2-3 years to have my tank cleaned by a polishing company in Annapolis. The tech tells me he most frequently gets called AFTER the stalled engine in a seaway, and less commonly performs the preventive maintanance that I pay for.
There is a good discussion of this on Diesel-fuels.com.
I also did the experiment in my own garage, storing fuel in a gerry can for a year, and observing the inevitable result on the bottom of the can.
I am personally convinced that microbes, algae, whatever, are inconsequential, relative to the larger problem of asphaltene.
Just my 2 cents. I only learned of this issue on forums like this, so I am merely passing along the favor.
My comment is more regarding the issue of keeping the fuel clean, than about the original discussion of the source of black exhaust.
I am not the diesel expert that others are, but I am utterly convinced that microbes are NOT the source of dirty fuel and tanks.
The culprit is ASPHALTENE, which is present in all diesel fuel, and precipitates out of the fuel over time. It then forms a slimey deposit on the bottom of your fuel tank.
If you bounce around in the waves, it is kicked back into suspension in particulate form, and then proceeds to clog your filters.
I pay 250 bucks every 2-3 years to have my tank cleaned by a polishing company in Annapolis. The tech tells me he most frequently gets called AFTER the stalled engine in a seaway, and less commonly performs the preventive maintanance that I pay for.
There is a good discussion of this on Diesel-fuels.com.
I also did the experiment in my own garage, storing fuel in a gerry can for a year, and observing the inevitable result on the bottom of the can.
I am personally convinced that microbes, algae, whatever, are inconsequential, relative to the larger problem of asphaltene.
Just my 2 cents. I only learned of this issue on forums like this, so I am merely passing along the favor.
Gary Peterson
Marine Guy
Good Point.
Different refineries have a different grade of crude and some DFs have more Asphaltene than others.
The DF in your area might be a lower quality than another area of the country.
In my part of the country (mid-west) I don't think it is much of a concern, at least I haven't heard of issues.
My 381 sat in Florida for 4 years on a fresh water river and we inspected the fuel before starting up the boat to motor to Tarpon Springs and had no issues. The water/fuel interface line concerns me more. Maybe we have purer fuel in our area.
Just a thought.
Different refineries have a different grade of crude and some DFs have more Asphaltene than others.
The DF in your area might be a lower quality than another area of the country.
In my part of the country (mid-west) I don't think it is much of a concern, at least I haven't heard of issues.
My 381 sat in Florida for 4 years on a fresh water river and we inspected the fuel before starting up the boat to motor to Tarpon Springs and had no issues. The water/fuel interface line concerns me more. Maybe we have purer fuel in our area.
Just a thought.
I have been doing some further research on the net on the subjectand have come up with a product by algae-x which is supposed to magnetically polish fuel when combined with a 705 conditioner and a filter to clean the fuel. Has any one ever heard of or tried this device and if so what where your results?
Gary Peterson
Marine Guy
If one looks this magnetic issue up in research papers from PHd's in chemistry it will be discovered that DF is not magnetic. There is a slight benefit with VERY heavy bunker oil but nothing else.
I will say, to be legal, that my OPINION is not to waste your money on these witchcraft ideas. It is always stated to filter your fuel after the magnets are installed - Duh - what do filters do!!!!!
Algae-X tried to get us at Detroit Diesel to test this system but they were always refused. We were worried that they could say, at the minimum, "tested by DDC" not saying that it was good or bad.
I will say, to be legal, that my OPINION is not to waste your money on these witchcraft ideas. It is always stated to filter your fuel after the magnets are installed - Duh - what do filters do!!!!!
Algae-X tried to get us at Detroit Diesel to test this system but they were always refused. We were worried that they could say, at the minimum, "tested by DDC" not saying that it was good or bad.
Some time ago, Practical Sailor tested the magnet device and found no effect at all. Best comment was that these devices did not seem to *harm* the fuel!
PT Barnum was right, you know...
Loren
PT Barnum was right, you know...
Loren
I kind of thought the algae-x was a flim/flam as it in no way had a power source. The only way anthing could move was by the fuel moving through it. Glad to see you guys are up on all these things. Well today I hauled out for the winter. I am starting to assemble all the parts I need to put a fuel polishing system on. I'll let you know how it goes. It may take me awhile as I certainly no genius when it comes to working on engines. Thank god my son is , however.
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