Cross-cut Dacron or Tri-radial Pentex?

[MarkA]

I just received quotes from Quantum sails, and the tri-radial pentex sails are about $1,000 (each) more than their dacron counterparts. Is it worth it? Why?

I'm considering a 135% genoa and a new main. At this point, I'm guessing at the 135, since I just bought the boat with a 100 jib. On most days, I need more sail area up front, but I also need it to reef once in a while since the boat is a little tender. Any thoughts on the size?

For the main, I'm considering 3 reefs and 4 full battens. Thoughts?

I have a 1978 Ericson 34T that I mostly sail around the islands of Southern California with my family. I might venture down Baja or even to Hawaii, and I might try some local races.

I have a lot to learn, and I want to thank you all for being so helpful.

 

[Loren Beach]

Sails, battens, and money

The Dacron will be heavier in weight, but your wallet stays heavier, also.

I do not put a lot of miles on our boat each year, and a "high end" dacron main and 135 are working just fine.
Do consider going with the "two plus two" batten setup. Full length battens are about 20 years past their prime as a marketing tool...
They create a new set of friction problems for hoisting and dropping the main, that in turn are solved with a new outlay of $$ for a slug replacement system...
A case of one unneeded expense leading to another expense. That's just my opinion, of course.

As to % of overlap, every boat, owner, and its geographic area will have their optimal preference. And, I stand firmly behind that vague statement!

I roll our 135 down to around a 100 or 110 and it looks OK to me... it does have a foam luff and was cut for this purpose. It is a dacron UKSail.
If I had more money I would have gotten the composite material sail -- lots lighter to carry around, hoist, and even thinner in section when rolled in.
IF I had another thousand $ per sail to spend...


Opinions rendered while you wait!
Deposit .02 please, (sorry, the .01 sale ended last week...)

Loren in PDX
Olson 34 #8

 

[MarkA]

Here's your $.02, Loren (clink clink).

I have full battens now, and the main is a beast to raise and drop--even headed straight into the wind. In fact, my vocabulary has dwindled to four letters whenever I hoist or douse it, and it deteriorates to death threats when I need to reef. But I was lead to believe that's the way to go--no? What do others have to say?

I'm a relative newcomer to sailing, and I'm forced to learn as fast as I can, because the boat needs some $$ investments, ASAP.

 

[Loren Beach]

Vocabulary expansion needed...

Our main has only the two top battens full length, and they are relatively short. The lower two are somewhat longer than the traditional standard batten lengths, but not much.
It does not hang up on the hoist or drop. Our rig is evenly ballanced between the area of the main and foretriangle, so the main is fairly good-sized, perhaps larger than the IOR-ish main on an E-34T.

This is the "two plus two" batten idea I was referring to, and a friend at UKSails NorthWest uses this term so commonly that I would not be surprised to see it used by most other sailmakers.
Seth, what say ye?

Bueller? Bueller?? !!


Cheers,
Loren

ps: kidding aside, Seth is the real expert on this site...

 

[MarkA]

Bueller? Indeed!

Seth, what say ye?

 

[windjunkee]

Mark,

We have a full batten dacron main that the P.O. bought. I was willing to pull the trigger on a new main but I was talked out of it by our sail guy. The sail is in good condition, not stretched out at all and any performance benefit from a laminate (kevlar or carbon) main would be negligible. We have two reef points, never bothered to rig lines to the second set and she has sailed beautifully on the reef up to and over 30 knots. We will be rigging lines for the second reef for the Puerto Vallarta Race.

As for headsails, while your side of the Palos Verdes Peninsula gets more wind than my side (Redondo Beach) we use our medium #1 more than any of our other sails (155). We probably use it 90 percent of the time. That includes our trips through hurricane gulch. We have a kevlar #1 and a mylar #3, along with an old dacron working jib and dacron #2 and dacron #1.

If you're not racing, go with dacron. It just doesn't make sense to send the extra money if performance is not your objective. We bought Ullman sails. I shopped North, Quantum, UK, EP, Ullman and others and went with Ullman. They're a bit more expensive, but the customer service is absolutely, unequivocally superior.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

You may want to look at a cruising laminate like Dimension Polyant CXT. Quantum built me a loose footed main and 150 furler using this material. Not as pricy as pentex but has similar elongation properties. It has been great stuff so far. We placed 5th out of 15 in our first race this fall and the sails have been easy to manage and reef. I was out in 3-5kts of breeze thursday night and the boat was doing 5.5-6 upwind at 35* apparent. Seth can add more here but IMHO Cruising laminates are the way to go unless you are really planning on racing exclusively and can afford the aramids. Triradial is definately the cut to go with and not Cross Cut. Another fabric I was looking into was Contender Maxx, but at the time I did not think it had been out long enough to make a good opinion on longevity. Maxx can be used in cross cut applications with good results I am told and cross cut is cheaper to build so the sail ends up costing you less. Where is Seth anyway?

 

[rwthomas1]

I tried and tried to justify the cost increase from dacron to laminate. I just couldn't make it work. I ended up with a nice new 130 genoa, standard crosscut dacron from Haarstick. No complaints, its only been used twice but we really like it. Granted, we don't really race and when we do its very informal. Our main is a 3yr old Doyle with full battens. It has a Schaefer batten setup with articulated joints at the slugs that allows the main to move easily. I have never had a problem hoisting or lowering the main. I usually have to go forward and pull down the last 6ft of the main but I have to go up and secure the main anyway so this is not a problem for me. RT

 

[Roger Ware]

number of reefs

a small point, but I would stick with two reefs rather than three. I keep my second reefing line rigged but have used it once in 3 years. Even if I planned to cross an ocean I think I would go with two reefs, but make each one deeper than the norm. Too much rope getting in the way otherwise.

Roger, Kingston, ON
E38 200 "Starlight"

 

[Rocinante33]

New Threads

Mark,

I am also shopping for a new main (our genoa is still serviceable). I, too got many quotes including Ullman, UK, North & Quantum. We will be getting a cross-cut dacron sail from Ullman, who gave us the best price & is also the closest loft to us (Vetura/Oxnard area). He will measure for our new main on Thursday. The dacron (polyester) mainsail is more reasonably priced & will likely last more years than a laminate...per our sailmaker. A laminate headsail would furl nicely, but the same statement about durability might also apply there. Unless you are a hard core racer, the dacron sail should ,be just fine, though a mix & match (laminate headsail & dacron main) would be OK, too.

Keith
E-33

 

[Seth]

He's baaaack.....

Hi guys!

2 reefs is plenty sufficient-the 3rd reef adds cost and weight, and if you are overpowered with 2 reefs, consider dropping the main (or possibly just furling the headsail and going reefed main only). I would only consider the 3rd reef if prolnged and frequent offshore trips (like Bermuda or the West Indies) were a major part of my plans.

Battens-As Loren sez-2+2 is better IMHO-less weight, friction, and the major benefit of full length battens occurs in the top half of the sail.

Materials-A high end cross cut dacron main is likely the better value for you, but I WOULD consider some kind of laminate for the headsail-BTW-for the 38-a 135% is plenty of sail once you have about 8-0 knots TWS, and not bad in the 6-8 range either. It will be a much better sail when reefed down (get the foam or poly luff insert) than a 150 will be-and with a 150 you will have unhappy passengers in anything above about 12 knots of breeze, and again, while it will reef down, it would not be as good shape-wise as a 135 reefed (this is due to the heavier base fabric of the 135 and the flatter shape-it is better suited to reefing). And if you DO plan on frequent reefing (and I am sure you do), the Tri-radial construction is MUCH better in terms of strength and load distribution. I would try m hardest to justify a laminate and Tri-radial construciton for the headsail-even for cruising. Having said all that, you should get adequate service from a cross cut sail (laminate or dacron), and only you can decide the value for the incremental cost-but there IS a noticeable difference-you will really notice it in the upper wind ranges, where the Tri-radial will maintain shape and draft position better when under load, and the leech will definitely last longer (since you have BIG threads running right along the load path)...

Good luck!

S

 

[Cory B]

Laminate vs Dacron vs Crosscut vs TriRadial

I'm also going to face the furling headsail cut and material conundrum in the near future. We're willing to spend a few extra $ for something better than crosscut dacron if we feel we are not giving too much up on usable life. Seth made an interesting comment on the life of the leech would be much longer with a tri-radial than a crosscut - which makes perfect sense when he explained it. To my uneducated eyes, the leech is the most noticeable thing "gone" with old sails.

So my questions are, how do the modern laminates, such as Contender Max, hold up compared to Dacron? And would a tri-radial Dacron buy much compared to a crosscut one, and just skip the laminates altogether?

Thanks,
Cory Bolton
1984 E35 "Balancing Act"

PS There is a very similar question posted on Sailing/Cruising Anarchy (do you have an alter ego, MarkA?), but this thread is definitely the better of the two.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Laminate vs Dacron My rationale:

1. laminate will stretch less and therefore hold better shape longer
2. Dacron will ultimately last longer but with crummy shape

The dacron will stretch out after a few years and lose its shape but the fabric itself will probably last 20 years under casual weekend use.
The laminate will not stretch out and will hold its shape but when it does fail it will likely be a catestophic failure.
You will get 1-2 years of great shape out of dacron after which it will start to decline. Laminate will hold its shape but may only last 10 years before it ultimately just blows up. I have friends who have 10-15 year old pentex racing sails that are pretty ragged out but they still have pretty decent shape.

 

[Seth]

Good point

In fact-Tri-Radial sails are built this way specifically so that they are stronger in all of the loaded directions(the leech area being the easiest to see for the untrained eye). It works like this: sail fabric comes in 2 basic styles: "Warp" oriented fabrics or "Fill" oriented. In a Warp oriented fabric, the larger (stronger) threads run along the LENGTH of the material (on a fabric roll), and the smaller ones run along the WIDTH of the material. With a FILL fabric, it is the opposite, the big threads run along the WIDTH, and the small ones along the LENGTH. Most dacrons (but not all) are FILL oriented products, and this is why cross cut sails are built with this material (plus labor is reduced with cross cut construction compared to tri-radial, bi-radial or just radial). If you imagine cross cut sails, the leech loads roughly line up with the WIDTH side of the fabric-and this is by design. The problem is that with cross cut sails you never get an ideal alignment of big threads and load path-the load path follows a curve from each corner of the sail (look at D4, 3DL, or even tape drives-they actually apply yarns along the computer generated load paths to maximize strength), and the panels of a crosscut sail follow a generally straight line. To compensate, sailmakers go with a heavier fabric (bigger threads) to give enough strength in all 3 directions: WARP, FILL and BIAS(these are the smaller threads running along a 45 degree axis) to keep the sail from distorting under load.

But, with a well chosen WARP fabric (there are even some balanced fabrics out there), and a radial construction-especially tri-radial where you have the panels coming out of each corner of the sail in small panels laid out in the "long" direction" so that the big threads are more closely aligned with the loads emanating from and connecting the corners, you achieve much better use of the "muscle" in the sailcloth. If you look at many tri-radial sails, you will see some horizontal seams (to better distribute shaping) that "rock" the sail, so at each joining seam the big threads are tilted to follow those pretty load path curves..By making better use of the strength of the sailcloth, you get a stronger sail for the same weight, or a strong enough sail at a lower weight.

As far as longevity goes, I am of the opinion that a good laminate (and I am a fan of the MAXX line of products, among others) has a considerably longer "shape" life than a dacron sail (unless the dacron sail is way overbuilt).

Yes, dacron sails may physically be a triangle for a few years longer, but in most cases, the dacron sail will lose it's ability to maintain shape over time and the wind range well before a properly built laminate sail.

So, I think laminates hold up as well or better (all other things being equal) in terms of USEFUL (to me) life.

Finally, there are some nice WARP dacron products out there to make a tri-radial with, and they will be better at holding shape over time and wind ranges than a crosscut sail. As of the time I began my "recovery" from sailmaking, the better ones were made by Dimension/Polyant-and were available in the 4-7.5 oz range IIRC, but your sailmaker will know. I seem to recall building a nice tri-radial dacron genoa for an E-35 with 5.5 Warp dacron in the luff and a 6.5 (ish) fabric in the foot and leech, and this sail had all of the strength of a 7.5 oz dacron crosscut....

Oh, yes-I have a real job...gotta go!

S

 

[MarkA]

Yeah, Cory, that's me at Sailing Anarchy.

Seth, I'm curious about your recommendation for two reefs. I'm also not convinced my choice of a 135 genoa is what I need. I realize some of my questions can only be answered by more experience at the tiller of my boat.

My boat is a 34T which had the mast replaced by a taller rig from a Schock 35 (according to the PO). She's a little tender, and I usually reef the (baggy) main in 15 kts.

This last weekend it was blowing around 20-25 (according to forecasts), and I felt I needed the second reef, but I didn't have a second reef line rigged, so I did my best to flatten the sail and set the traveler car to leeward. I also furled the 100% jib a little. This kept the boat balanced well enough that I could let go of the tiller and she would run a straight line on her own, but we were still heeled at 25-30 degrees.

Based on that, I'm concerned about being caught in 35-40 kt. winds without a third reef. They do occur offshore here in Southern California, and I would like to try Hawaii in the next year or so. Do you still recommend only 2 reefs?

As for the size of the genoa, I'm undecided. I have only sailed the boat with a worn out, flogging, baggy 100% jib. I sometimes furl that a little in 15-20 kt. winds. In less than 10 kts, it doesn't do much for me. I have a 150 deck sweeping genoa that I've never removed from the bag, but the PO told me it was pretty worn out. I'll try that sometime this week to see what it's like.

I was thinking 130-135 would be nice because it can be reefed close to 100% Beyond that, I'm thinking of adding a solent stay and storm jib. However Ted's and Windjunkie's comments about their 150/155 have me thinking bigger.

Damn, my head is spinning. Thanks for all the advice, folks --keep it coming!

 

[Seth]

A-ha!

Sorry-I somehow thought you had a 38...A 34T with a Schock 35 rig??? Tender is not a strong enough word. This just makes my point even better.

Unless you need to maximize your performance in under 8 knots of breeze (i.e. racing), you really have no need for a 150-especially on this boat. For cruising, a full main and 135 on this boat will have you moving along quite well in anything over about 8 knots TWS, and very powered in up 12. By 15 you are looking for less sail. Once you are heeled more than the high teens, you are making too much leeway and dragging too much rudder-you will be faster and more comfy more upright. The 150 will be better than a 135 in the under 8-10 stuff, but much worse above that-the odds favor the smaller sail for this boat. ESPECIALLY if plan offshore work-you don't want a 150 as your primary headsail when you are in the Trades!

As for reefs, this is a fairly small mainsail, and if you go dacron it is is easy to add a third reef later if you find you need it, but I would say the odds are that you won't. 2 reefs and a #4/solent/whatever you want to call it, should be ideal for upwind up to about 35-40. Beyond that, I think you should consider easing off to a less abusive point of sail and/or dropping the main entirely (or furling the headsail). For offshore work other than Hawaii, then yes, a 3rd reef or even better a trysail is recommended. The big advantage of a Trysail over a 3rd reef is that it can be used WITHOUT the boom-or even more importantly, in the even of a broken boom!!! It is also a (spare) sail to use aft of the mast if you somehow destroy the mainsail.

Not that I have strong feeling against the 3rd reef, just that it is rarely really needed and adds weight and cost to the sail-and you will get better value from those dollars with a storm trysail. Here is the kicker: Experience has shown that unless the trysail has its' own track on the mast (not hard to do) and is rigged and in the bag on deck when you head offshore, the likelihood of rigging it in rough conditions is slim. If you really like the idea of a 3rd reef, no harm done-I just question the value...

Hope that helps!

S

 

[MarkA]

Seth,

Yes it does help very much. Thank you!

 

[MarkA]

Seth, the PO must have been wrong about the Schock rig, as the "I" measurement on my boat is only 45', whereas the Schock 35 is 49.35. I don't know what the hell I have. (I = 45, J = 13' 1", P = 42' 3", E = 11' 10" (measurements provided by PO, so some skepticism is warranted)

Based on all of your good advice, I'm now leaning toward this:

Headsail: 135% tri-radial laminate.

Main: Cross-cut Dacron, 2 reefs (but deeper than usual) and 2+2 battens. I'm also considering moving the boom up a few inches to clear my 6' 3" noggin and slightly reduce sail area.

I like the guy I spoke with at Quantum in Long Beach, and he seems very helpful. But I'll also look at Ullman and UK based on some of your comments.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Seth]

Allrighty, then!

Gotcha, so here's the deal.

The 34's of that vintage, especially the T, need to be measured before cutting any sails. Many differed from "std" due to IOR rating optimization for local areas/fleets. The rig should be about 45 x 13.83 X 37 X 11.22-But the E might be 38-ish.
42 feet for the E would be very tough-unless the PO lowered the boom. If the bands are still on the mast and boom, measure from the BOTTOM of the band at the top of the rig to the FWD edge of the band at the end of the boom. Should be between 11-12.5 feet, and I am sure if the I is 45, the E is less than 42. Either way, no harm in raising it slightly for headroom.

Having said all that, you may not be quite as tender as a 38, but still on the powerful side, and wanting to reduce sail sooner than stiffer types-this means great light/moderate air performance.

You are on the right track with your leanings-no harm in making the #2 reef deeper than typical (they are usually done in 15% increments).

Todd at Q Long Beach is a great guy, VERY experienced, and an old, dear friend-say hello to him for me!

The Ullman guys are also great (they did right by Jim McCone-aka Windjunkee)-talk to Sam and say hello from me. I don't know the local UK guys, and frankly they would be my last choice of the 3, but it never hurts to compare.

BW-I am a Socal transplant-I lived in Huntington Beach from 1978-1999-so I know the area well.

 

[MarkA]

Wow

Seth, I just checked out your profile and saw your credentials. We're very fortunate to have you here!

Thank you again for all your advice. I'll let you know how things turn out. I think Todd will be measuring the boat and helping with some rigging issues on Friday.

-mark