Bristol Varnish

[Bob Cole]

Bristol Finish

I've had very good experience with Brietol Finish. It's been on my boat for about 5-6 years and I renew it every other year or so. sand it lightly and recoat. If you nick it or break the surface you need to repair it. If water gets under it it will lift but that's the case with most coatings I think. For me it works fine and looks good all the time. We are on Lake Mi. so a short season.
Bob
E-34
Sundance

 

[CaptDan]

Maybe Ill have to check out the Natural.

Cetol Natural Teak? I'm going on my third season with it - after having tried a lot of other products over the years.

Like you, I disliked the orange (actually I have a more scatalogical term) hue Cetol takes on over time, but the Natural seems to remain - well, more natural. One application of top coat annually and the finish looks fine to my eyes. And a LOT less work than all the varnishes I've tried.

Bottom line - it's NOT cosmetically like Epiphanes - but a very good alternative.

YMMV.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"

 

[DAKOTA MARINE]

Bristol, Cetol, or Varnish all have pros and cons.

I just joined this site because we are working on an Ericson 33 for a customer and needed some info regarding his boat (that has nothing to do with varnishing). Upon scrolling through threads looking for the info I needed, I happened to notice this thread and thought I might offer some advice.

Among the many things that we do, brightwork/varnish work is one of the specialties my company is well known for in this area. Over the past 6 or 7 years we have probably restored and/or refinished nearly 100 boats from Pearsons and Ericsons to Grand Banks and Hinckleys, and everything in between. Both exterior brightwork and interior cabin and sole restorations. (We are presently restoring a cabin sole on another Ericson 38 this winter which has absorbed moisture resulting in areas of deep staining, some rotting ply, and complete varnish failure. I'm confident once we're finished, the owner will be thrilled with the result.)

Though Bristol isn't my favorite, we are Bristol Finish dealers, and have used it on many restorations for one reason or another. We know most of the tricks to obtaining a very nice finish with it. (It's never as easy as the manufacturer implies.) Using a clear penetrating epoxy sealer greatly increases Bristol's holding power, and frankly there are few clear wood-finishing products on the marine market that can hold up to UV rays as well as Bristol can.

The new Cetol Natural product with its more varnish-like look is a great product which we now use almost as much as varnish. Cetol (regular, light or natural) is an excellent choice for use on older boats whose wood trim may have absorbed moisture over the years. Nothing holds on as well as Cetol (when properly prepared) when the wood has a bit of moisture in it(as much as 18%). Forget Bristol or varnish wherever wood can, or has absorbed moisture. However, in my opinion, there is no wood finish more beautiful than a well-done 12-coat Epifanes varnish job that was properly prepared and meticulously applied in optimum weather conditions. It's expensive to have done initially and to regularly maintain, but it will have dock-walkers drooling. I could drag on about the pros and cons of all the finishes out there, but instead, if you have a specific question regarding any finish or any preparation or application procedure, please feel free to email me. Or just try asking here, but I don't visit this site regularly. If I can help, I will. In the meantime, there is a discussion of Bristol, Cetol and varnish on our website if you are interested. www.dakotamarine.com. Just click on the brightwork link when you get there, then scroll down a little.

Also, if you are in the NY,CT, RI area and get WindCheck magazine, there is a feature story on restoring your cabin sole in the January/February '09 issue that I just completed for them. Check it out. It can also presently be viewed on their website at www.windcheckmagazine.com.

Again, if you have questions regarding any varnishing issue, please feel free to contact me for free advice.

 

[Loren Beach]

Every time someone mentions refinishing or replacing a sole...
"the duck comes down" with the sign in his beak that reads:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1526&referrerid=28



And Doug, Great Article you wrote and the pictures are helpful,too!

LB

 

[tilwinter]

Moisture content of teak

Dakota Marine (?Doug Ely)

I appreciate your post, especially the following:

Cetol (regular, light or natural) is an excellent choice for use on older boats whose wood trim may have absorbed moisture over the years. Nothing holds on as well as Cetol (when properly prepared) when the wood has a bit of moisture in it(as much as 18%). Forget Bristol or varnish wherever wood can, or has absorbed moisture.

This one parameter, the moisture content of the teak, is one have have never seen discussed previously in my reading on the subject.

Do you have any comment on the issue of spontaneous bubbles in Bristol Finnish?

 

[DAKOTA MARINE]

Re: Bubbles in Bristol Finish

Without actually seeing the issues, I can't say for sure exactly what's causing the bubbles, however, I can offer a few suggestions. First of all, are you sure they are actual bubbles and not airborne contaminants that settle? It is very typical to get some bubbles, but most will go away as the finish settles. Good brushing practices should limit the amount of bubbles. First off, be sure to only brush in one direction, never back and forth. And always brush towards the wet edge. Secondly, use a slow steady long stroke whenever possible rather than short choppy strokes. Too fast a stroke will create more bubbles. But again, most bubbles should flatten out on their own. We sometimes actually roll on Bristol which leaves thousands of bubbles, but then tip it out lightly (and slowly) with a good quality badger hair brush, for a bubble-free coat. I recommend a good quality brush rather than a foam brush, which can add to the bubble problem.

If you are working outdoors, you will probably get a little air movement, which is good. Air movement is also helpful in removing bubbles. Indoors use a fan to move the air around a little, but not directly on the work. This helps drying too. I'm sure you know to lightly stir, not shake the varnish/Bristol in the can. Some bubbles are caused by a stirring up of the molecules during the brushing process, but other types of bubbles are caused by out-gassing in the wood. In situations where the wood substrate is cold, then brought into a warmer area for finishing, or if the boat's wood has cooled from the night and you lay on a finishing material while the wood starts to heat up for the day, out-gassing bubbles will definitely occur due to the expansion of the wood. If you are working inside, under normal temps, or outside without major temp variations out of direct sunlight, that is probably not your issue. But I'm not certain those are the kind of bubbles you are getting. What you might actually see is minute particles of dust that have settled into the finish. And that's a whole nother issue that I can talk about for hours.

One last thing, before you apply the final coat be sure to give each piece a very aggressive 220-grit sanding (using a sanding block) to flatten the surface as much as possible. For the smoothest finish, it is best to sand between most coats (even though the manufacturer tells you it's not necessary), but this will require a few extra coats to make sure the mil thickness in the end is what it needs to be to stand up to UV rays for a few seasons. Don't attempt to sand without giving the previous coat more than a couple days to cure. And don't ever sand in the same area in which you will be applying the finish (if inside). After sanding, brush off the surface, vacuum the surface, then use a rag dampened (not saturated) with MEK or acetone to wipe the surface clean. Wipe in long strokes in one direction. Wiping back and forth or in circles only moves any loose particles around and can soften the surface too much. Finally, use a tack cloth to lightly wipe the surface just before you brush on any varnish.

Hope this helps. If not, please feel free to email me with more questions.

Doug

 

[tilwinter]

Bristol Finnish

Doug:

Thanks for taking the time to come back and add to this thread.

I was away on vacation; hence the time delay.

Once again you have mentioned some technique pointers that I have not previously encountered.

Of particular interest is the tip to roll TOWARD the wet edge.

Rod Johnson

 

[DAKOTA MARINE]

No Problem

Doug:

Thanks for taking the time to come back and add to this thread.

I was away on vacation; hence the time delay.

Once again you have mentioned some technique pointers that I have not previously encountered.

Of particular interest is the tip to roll TOWARD the wet edge.

Rod Johnson

Rod:

I'm glad I checked back. I happened to be searching around for some other info and noticed your post. If you (or anyone else on these boards for that matter) ever have questions regarding varnish work or other types of work in which my company may have some expertise, I'd be more than happy to answer them if I can. I enjoy spreading around any knowledge I may have accumulated over the years. Might as well, all that time and work aquiring it isn't worth a damn thing if I take it all with me when I'm gone. So please, feel free.

Doug Ely
DAKOTA MARINE

 

[Frank Langer]

Doug, another related question....

Hi Doug,
Thanks for your helpful tips above. I've had good luck with varnish and cetol in the past, but prefer varnish. Do you have any advice on temperature variation when varnishing? I want to get gloss varnish (Captain's brand) on interior trim, satin varnish (Captains) on the main interior panels, and gloss on the exterior handrails. I would like to get it done as soon as possible, but daily high temps are about 45 degrees falling to about 38 at night and our coastal environment is humid. I can keep the interior a bit warmer with a heater, but can't run it full time.

The instructions on the can say it's ok to apply above 40 degrees, but if I apply it at that temperature and it gradually begins to cool again later in the day, will that spoil the varnish. I have had varnish become cloudy and lose it's shine when I applied it in cool conditions in the fall, but I don't know what the temperature cut-off is to get good results.

Thanks for any tips.

Frank

 

[SASSY]

Gold Spar

My boat was covered in Cetol and it looked like brown paint, it kept the teak well protected but boy was it ugly. I removed the Cetol using a random orbital sander, and 120 grit paper. I found that anything more agresive would remove to much teak. I wiped the teak down with acetone prior to aplication removing as much surface oil as possible. I applied 7 coats of Gold Spar from West Marine lightly sanding with 200 grit between aplications, and re-wiping with the acetone. The finished product was far better than I could have imagined. E-34 owners are pretty lucky as there is not a lot of teak on the boat. The transome cap, drop boards, hand rails, and boarding ladder steps are all I have to contend with so maintenance is not as time consuming as some boats. Don't get me wrong I think teak looks great, and adds a lot of character to a boat, but everything in moderation. Teak is like a black car, when it's kept looking new it looks great but when its not you sure wish it wasn't black.
We spent last summer at Twin Dolphins Marina in Bradenton. It was Island Packet central, not a day went by that someone wasn't doing bright work. They come standard with Cetol but even some of the guys that worked for IP would prefer other finishes.
One thing about asking sailors for advice, we all have a different opinion. My personal motivation for most purchaes is "I like shiny", and the finish I got from Gold spar gave me just what I was looking for.
Good luck.
Andy

 

[Bardo]

I re-did my Bristol 29 with Cetol Natural. Very nice color, easy application. I figure it took me half the time varnish would have based on the prep and application times required. No worries about bubbles etc. I enjoyed sailing the boat and not doing several more coats of varnish. And the future upkeep of the Cetol is very manageable.

 

[Gary Peterson]

Varnish smells better. It makes a boat smell like a boat should !!!

 

[DAKOTA MARINE]

Hi Doug,
Thanks for your helpful tips above. I've had good luck with varnish and cetol in the past, but prefer varnish. Do you have any advice on temperature variation when varnishing? I want to get gloss varnish (Captain's brand) on interior trim, satin varnish (Captains) on the main interior panels, and gloss on the exterior handrails. I would like to get it done as soon as possible, but daily high temps are about 45 degrees falling to about 38 at night and our coastal environment is humid. I can keep the interior a bit warmer with a heater, but can't run it full time.

The instructions on the can say it's ok to apply above 40 degrees, but if I apply it at that temperature and it gradually begins to cool again later in the day, will that spoil the varnish. I have had varnish become cloudy and lose it's shine when I applied it in cool conditions in the fall, but I don't know what the temperature cut-off is to get good results.

Thanks for any tips.

Frank

Frank:

There are a number of reasons not to varnish in the colder temps. Typically, 55 degrees is too cold, even though it says on the can 50. First of all, varnish will not set up as nicely or as quickly in colder temps. Working inside a boat, the light isn't usually that great, so noticing runs is harder. Runs and sags can occur much longer after application on vertical surfaces, because the varnish doesn't set up quickly, as it might in more ideal 68-75 degree temps. Also, gloss varnishes will loose shine and can easily blush out (to a cloudy finish) in cool moist air. It is always best to lay on varnish earlier in the day so it has time to cure on the surface before any condensation or dew can get to it. Any large disparity in temp over a short period (such as the few hours after application) will likely affect the way your varnish drys. You can add dryers or thinners or marine penetrol which can help with the problem, but that's something where knowing the right amount of which, for the conditions takes some experience. Otherwise it's trial and error. I could make recommendations, based on the conditions at the time of varnishing.

Another tip, get the varnish and the substrate to similar temps before laying on any varnish.

Cold temps will affect the flow. We add marine penetrol when we have no choice and must lay on a coat outside in somewhat breezy conditions. We also sometimes use it on very warm days (85+) and in cooler temps below 60. It really helps. Adding a lot of thinner (15-20%) will also work, but will leave you with a thinner coat, and too much thinner will affect the gloss.

Satin varnish can dry blotchy in cold temps. (BTW, be sure to stir satin varnish to distribute the satin element equally before pouring it into a work cup...through a strainer, of course.) Drying in cooler temps (satin or gloss)can take much more than 24 hours and will barely dry at all in the temperatures you mentioned. Sanding them out between coats can turn into a mess, so wait for days before attempting in real cool temps.

There are so many more points I can make, but really have to run right now. Please feel free to email me at Doug@dakotamarine.com for other specific questions. Hopefully you got something from this.

Good luck,
Doug Ely
DAKOTA MARINE

 

[DAKOTA MARINE]

Varnishing in Colder Temps...

Hi Doug,
Thanks for your helpful tips above. I've had good luck with varnish and cetol in the past, but prefer varnish. Do you have any advice on temperature variation when varnishing? I want to get gloss varnish (Captain's brand) on interior trim, satin varnish (Captains) on the main interior panels, and gloss on the exterior handrails. I would like to get it done as soon as possible, but daily high temps are about 45 degrees falling to about 38 at night and our coastal environment is humid. I can keep the interior a bit warmer with a heater, but can't run it full time.

The instructions on the can say it's ok to apply above 40 degrees, but if I apply it at that temperature and it gradually begins to cool again later in the day, will that spoil the varnish. I have had varnish become cloudy and lose it's shine when I applied it in cool conditions in the fall, but I don't know what the temperature cut-off is to get good results.

Thanks for any tips.

Frank

Frank:

There are a number of reasons not to varnish in the colder temps. Typically, 55 degrees is too cold, even though it says on the can 50. First of all, varnish will not set up as nicely or as quickly in colder temps. Working inside a boat, the light isn't usually that great, so noticing runs is harder. Runs and sags can occur much longer after application on vertical surfaces, because the varnish doesn't set up quickly, as it might in more ideal 68-75 degree temps. Also, gloss varnishes will loose shine and can easily blush out (to a cloudy finish) in cool moist air. It is always best to lay on varnish earlier in the day so it has time to cure on the surface before any condensation or dew can get to it. Any large disparity in temp over a short period (such as the few hours after application) will likely affect the way your varnish drys. You can add dryers or thinners or marine penetrol which can help with the problem, but that's something where knowing the right amount of which, for the conditions takes some experience. Otherwise it's trial and error. I could make recommendations, based on the conditions at the time of varnishing.

Another tip, get the varnish and the substrate to similar temps before laying on any varnish.

Cold temps will affect the flow. We add marine penetrol when we have no choice and must lay on a coat outside in somewhat breezy conditions. We also sometimes use it on very warm days (85+) and in cooler temps below 60. It really helps. Adding a lot of thinner (15-20%) will also work, but will leave you with a thinner coat, and too much thinner will affect the gloss.

Satin varnish can dry blotchy in cold temps. (BTW, be sure to stir satin varnish to distribute the satin element equally before pouring it into a work cup...through a strainer, of course.) Drying in cooler temps (satin or gloss)can take much more than 24 hours and will barely dry at all in the temperatures you mentioned. Sanding them out between coats can turn into a mess, so wait for days before attempting in real cool temps.

There are so many more points I can make, but really have to run right now. Please feel free to email me at Doug@dakotamarine.com for other specific questions. Hopefully you got something from this.

Good luck,
Doug Ely
DAKOTA MARINE

 

[Frank Langer]

Doug,

Thanks for those helpful tips. I think the main advice is don't do it at all at lower temps, and if necessary, you've given some useful tips that may increase the chances of success.

I guess that's the difference between an amateur's optimistic enthusiasm and the professional's expert knowledge!

Frank

 

[DAKOTA MARINE]

Re: Varnish smells better

Varnish smells better. It makes a boat smell like a boat should !!!

No argument here! We've varnished hundreds of boats, and you'd think by now we'd be sick of the smell. Nope! A tung oil based varnish smells so rich, it's almost intoxicating. A freshly finished cabin sole enhances the interior, not only in look, but also in aroma as you step below.

And, FYI, Bristol, being a 2-part urethane (plastic) smells downright awful!