Don't know if this has ever been posted. I just found this myself. It is the "Sailing Yacht & Boat Design Database". I found out that the E32 I used to race on was a "lead sled" and not the "cruiser/racer" it was hyped as. Makes me wonder about all the races we won! Anyway have a look around. Curious what others might think about this.
boat design
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Sailing Yacht & Boat Design Database
But to every mind there openeth,
A way, and way, and away,
A high soul climbs the highway,
And the low soul gropes the low,
And in between on the misty flats,
The rest drift to and fro.
But to every man there openeth,
A high way and a low,
And every mind decideth,
The way his soul shall go.
One ship sails East,
And another West,
By the self-same winds that blow,
'Tis the set of the sails
And not the gales,
That tells the way we go.
Like the winds of the sea
Are the waves of time,
As we journey along through life,
'Tis the set of the soul,
That determines the goal,
And not the calm or the strife.
And if I could rhyme,
as well as keep time,
I might have written this sonnet,
but I find the performance
of any boat comes from
what the skipper has under his bonnet.
September Sun
ERY35240D686
But to every mind there openeth,
A way, and way, and away,
A high soul climbs the highway,
And the low soul gropes the low,
And in between on the misty flats,
The rest drift to and fro.
But to every man there openeth,
A high way and a low,
And every mind decideth,
The way his soul shall go.
One ship sails East,
And another West,
By the self-same winds that blow,
'Tis the set of the sails
And not the gales,
That tells the way we go.
Like the winds of the sea
Are the waves of time,
As we journey along through life,
'Tis the set of the soul,
That determines the goal,
And not the calm or the strife.
And if I could rhyme,
as well as keep time,
I might have written this sonnet,
but I find the performance
of any boat comes from
what the skipper has under his bonnet.
September Sun
ERY35240D686
Magical Thinking in Computer Analysis
I had the program compare the 32-3 with the Westsail 32. It says they are both "lead sleds", and that the ERicson 32-3 is much stiffer than a sleek, tippy Westsail 32.
Important, very new facts we should all be aware of?
Or do I misunderstand the bar displays? the program doesn't work? the inputs are incorrect? I have been reefing way too early?
I tried to copy the results here, but the graphics don't transfer.
I had the program compare the 32-3 with the Westsail 32. It says they are both "lead sleds", and that the ERicson 32-3 is much stiffer than a sleek, tippy Westsail 32.
Important, very new facts we should all be aware of?
Or do I misunderstand the bar displays? the program doesn't work? the inputs are incorrect? I have been reefing way too early?
I tried to copy the results here, but the graphics don't transfer.
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The bar graphs are confusing, but I get it now.
A useful tool, which I hope to close now and get back to the rest of my morning. And not look up 20 other boats. To close the program right now. This instant. Using will power.
A useful tool, which I hope to close now and get back to the rest of my morning. And not look up 20 other boats. To close the program right now. This instant. Using will power.
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Carefree Sailor
Member II
My interpretation of the legend below each graph is to provide a cutoff value, if you will, of the number to classify a boat. With respect to the question Christian asks about "Tender>8", I interpret this to mean that the Ericson falls in the "stiff" category whereas the Westsail barely misses the cutoff to be called "stiff". For either boat to be "tender", the roll period would need to exceed 8.
If someone has a different interpretation of the graphs, I would be interested to read it.
I have now concluded that the bar key numbers are unrelated to "less than" and "more than."
The numbers are the scale range, which is different for each comparison.
The symbol "less than" (<) in front of Stiff just means that a lower number indicates less stiff.
Westsails, as we know, are mighty stiff, and my boat can only be considered relatively tender--if you remove the negative connotation of tender, which unfortunately it has.
The numbers are the scale range, which is different for each comparison.
The symbol "less than" (<) in front of Stiff just means that a lower number indicates less stiff.
Westsails, as we know, are mighty stiff, and my boat can only be considered relatively tender--if you remove the negative connotation of tender, which unfortunately it has.
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Thanks for the careful explanation. Data that describes a Westsail 32 as more tender than an Ericson isn't using "tender" in the normal nautical sense .
I had to look it up to make sure I haven't lost the rest of my mind:
7. Nautical Likely to heel easily under sail; crank.
I had to look it up to make sure I haven't lost the rest of my mind:
7. Nautical Likely to heel easily under sail; crank.
Rocinante33
Contributing Partner
Houston, we've had a problem
This database, as presented, doesn't seem to pass the sniff test.
For one thing, the draft of both boats is shown as zero.
That it says that the Westail, which is a lard*ss and the sail area to displacement ratio is only 14, is more tender than the Ericson which weighs half as much, and has a respectable 17 for SA/D, is just nuts. Ericsons have always had a reputation, deservedly so, as tender boats which go to weather well. The Westsail is the opposite. "Stout" is the nicest thing that can be said about it. That and the fact that one survived the perfect storm, even after her crew had been unwillingly removed.
BTW, when it comes to boats and women, tender is good!
This database, as presented, doesn't seem to pass the sniff test.
For one thing, the draft of both boats is shown as zero.
That it says that the Westail, which is a lard*ss and the sail area to displacement ratio is only 14, is more tender than the Ericson which weighs half as much, and has a respectable 17 for SA/D, is just nuts. Ericsons have always had a reputation, deservedly so, as tender boats which go to weather well. The Westsail is the opposite. "Stout" is the nicest thing that can be said about it. That and the fact that one survived the perfect storm, even after her crew had been unwillingly removed.
BTW, when it comes to boats and women, tender is good!
I'm not willing to give up the English language definition of tender, and Herreshoff wasn't either.
Rocinante33
Contributing Partner
"We are two peoples, separated by a common language."
Winston Churchill, speaking of Americans and Brits
Winston Churchill, speaking of Americans and Brits
Rocinante33
Contributing Partner
I'm still not convinced this is a language issue. I feel there may be an error in a calculation, data input, or both.
With that said, I cannot get anything from that site. At first I thought it was an iPad issue, but I tried it on the desktop too. Nada. Maybe they shut down their server on the weekends.
With that said, I cannot get anything from that site. At first I thought it was an iPad issue, but I tried it on the desktop too. Nada. Maybe they shut down their server on the weekends.
Is Alain one of us? Got this response to a request for explanation from Design Database.
Hi Christian,
Thanks for the opportunity to join the discussion. I emailed a reply to Alain Morrissette this evening as he was the first to bring the forum to my attention. Now I've just noticed your email!
I'm delighted with the debate you have going on. It's all largely positive and a good read. FullAndBy has the best hinge on how the values work and is on the right track.
First thing we all should do is make sure the base numbers, LWL etc are absolutely correct. I believe a draft is missing, perhaps Keith Parcells could send that to me.
Thanks
Paul
Hi Christian,
Thanks for the opportunity to join the discussion. I emailed a reply to Alain Morrissette this evening as he was the first to bring the forum to my attention. Now I've just noticed your email!
I'm delighted with the debate you have going on. It's all largely positive and a good read. FullAndBy has the best hinge on how the values work and is on the right track.
First thing we all should do is make sure the base numbers, LWL etc are absolutely correct. I believe a draft is missing, perhaps Keith Parcells could send that to me.
Thanks
Paul
Nice to meet you, lad.
Those messages are what we used to call non-denial denials. But Paul is a positive thinker, for sure.
Use with caution is right.
Those messages are what we used to call non-denial denials. But Paul is a positive thinker, for sure.
Use with caution is right.
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Sailplan YD
New Member
Joining the debate
Gentlemen,
Thank you for the opportunity to join your forum and reply directly to the conversation you have started about Sailplan's Design Data app.
I have checked over the data for the Ericson and Westsail designs and it seems to be correct so I'm hoping we can park the doubts about the 'calculation and data input'. Compared to each other the boats are appearing where they would be expected in the scatter plots, the westsail is draggy and heavy but has more sail area.
It seems the most contentious issue is the use of the word Tender to describe the stability characteristics of a yacht.
I see the Westsail 32 described as "tippy" in an early post. Are we discussing the same Westail as detailed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westsail_32 "The heavy, full-keeled hull makes for good tracking offshore, coupled with a safe-feeling and quiet ride". A "safe feeling" and "quiet ride" don't indicate a "tippy" yacht. Is the Westsail 'tippy' in that it heels over more as it carries 25% more sail area than the E32? If we factor in its 50% extra displacement which absorbs this power (inertia) it will be slower than the E32 to come back to upright hence the longer roll period.
Are we on the right track here to push the discussion forward? I look forward to your replies.
Kind regards
Paul
Gentlemen,
Thank you for the opportunity to join your forum and reply directly to the conversation you have started about Sailplan's Design Data app.
I have checked over the data for the Ericson and Westsail designs and it seems to be correct so I'm hoping we can park the doubts about the 'calculation and data input'. Compared to each other the boats are appearing where they would be expected in the scatter plots, the westsail is draggy and heavy but has more sail area.
It seems the most contentious issue is the use of the word Tender to describe the stability characteristics of a yacht.
I see the Westsail 32 described as "tippy" in an early post. Are we discussing the same Westail as detailed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westsail_32 "The heavy, full-keeled hull makes for good tracking offshore, coupled with a safe-feeling and quiet ride". A "safe feeling" and "quiet ride" don't indicate a "tippy" yacht. Is the Westsail 'tippy' in that it heels over more as it carries 25% more sail area than the E32? If we factor in its 50% extra displacement which absorbs this power (inertia) it will be slower than the E32 to come back to upright hence the longer roll period.
Are we on the right track here to push the discussion forward? I look forward to your replies.
Kind regards
Paul
Welcome aboard. This is a most courteous yachting forum, so allow me to apologize for any tone that might be misunderstood, and I will desist from wisecracks, having used up my quota.
I had the program compare the 32-3 with the Westsail 32. It says they are both "lead sleds", and that the ERicson 32-3 is much stiffer than a sleek, tippy Westsail 32.
The above sentence intended the most profound sarcasm possible, i.e., the polar opposite, meaning that Westsails are neither sleek nor tippy.
I only have only one question left, which will do it for me:
Do you think a Westsail 32 is more tender than an Ericson 32?
I had the program compare the 32-3 with the Westsail 32. It says they are both "lead sleds", and that the ERicson 32-3 is much stiffer than a sleek, tippy Westsail 32.
The above sentence intended the most profound sarcasm possible, i.e., the polar opposite, meaning that Westsails are neither sleek nor tippy.
I only have only one question left, which will do it for me:
Do you think a Westsail 32 is more tender than an Ericson 32?
Sailplan YD
New Member
Tipster
Christian,
Going by the bare data we have, the Ericson has a shorter roll period estimate than the Westsail, this indicates that the Ericson is stiffer than the Westsail (i.e. the Westsail is more tender than the Ericson).
However, you know your boat! So is this the case in reality?
Perhaps if we turn the viewpoint around a bit and you compare your Ericson with the Mumm 30 you'll see the results reversed. The Ericson becomes the more tender boat. Would you agree that this is correct?
Regards
Paul
Christian,
Going by the bare data we have, the Ericson has a shorter roll period estimate than the Westsail, this indicates that the Ericson is stiffer than the Westsail (i.e. the Westsail is more tender than the Ericson).
However, you know your boat! So is this the case in reality?
Perhaps if we turn the viewpoint around a bit and you compare your Ericson with the Mumm 30 you'll see the results reversed. The Ericson becomes the more tender boat. Would you agree that this is correct?
Regards
Paul
I am not sure of the exact NA usage of some terms, but have always understood that "tippy" is, for us average sailors, a shorthand way to describe low initial stability. I think of this in terms of 'slack bilges' and 'hard bilge chines' in smaller cruisers.
Ancient history note: In the late 70's we raced our Ranger 20 in a OD group with a class of Catalina 22's. The C-22 was more stable-seeming when you stepped on the deck, and the R-20, was "tippy" in comparison, having very slack bilges.
These different designs got their 'final stability' from hull form -- the Catalina liked to be sailed much flatter and the Ranger was designed to sail at about 15 degrees of heel, having a hard chine in the hull side well above the waterline. Both were very capable pocket cruisers for a couple.
The Westsail 32 and a related design from Crealock, the Willard 30 cutter, both have roundish bottoms and slack bilges. I have done a number of ocean deliveries on the Willard and can testify that it rolls a lot at sea. Built like a tank, and rather slow. This is reassuring to the owner (and crew...) but it is different than my Olson. I have a lot less wetted surface and a flatter run aft and of course a transom stern. That's were we get our double digit speeds off the wind.
I have one ocean delivery on the Ericson 32-3 model. while it has enough "tuck up" in the stern sections to confine it to displacement speeds, it also has more V to the forefoot than our design and is quieter in lumpy seas. It is a great compromise in design elements, IMHO.
Gotta say, referencing the Mumm is like comparing road race vehicles like a SR mid engine car to a sedan-derived race car like the Volvo 122S I used to own.
The family sedan could actually function as an everyday family car again if you removed the roll bar, but the SR would fare very poorly for camping trips!
And boats like the Mumm and the similar Olson 30 and Santa Cruze 27 have about as much accommodation as a.... Catalina 22.... !
I get your point about comparing some of these disparate designs to establish the length of your "tippy" scale.
Interesting discussion.
Regards,
Loren