Bilge Flood, Dripless Shaft Seal Suspected

[Christian Williams]

Arrived at the boat Friday to find the bilge brimming, which is unprecedented. My daughter Alex was with me and we commenced pumping out, which took the Whale and the diaphragm pump nearly 40 minutes. The 38 bilge is relatively deep and long.

I quickly discovered that the auto function of the Water Witch 101 electronic float switch had failed. I figured bad WW reviews had caught up to me, but it was only a failed butt connector after five years of service.

So I have a working auto bilge pump again.

The greater issue is, what happened? I can only guess it was the dripless shaft seal. This new unit was installed last year by an expensive boatyard. I will send the initial clip from the video below to the boatyard for comment, and try to get them to come to the boat and inspect their work. Frankly it looks OK to me. Maybe someone will comment on whether the pressure of the bellows on the rotating plate seems adequate.

Why would the dripless flood when it never has before? Well, I changed the zinc on the heat exchanger last week, and in flopping around down there I likely banged and dislodged the bellows. I usually do. Maybe that was the cause, although I don't know why it would continue to leak after temporary interference was over.

Of course it's Fourth of July weekend, which is always when such issues arise. I'll have to check the bilge daily until I can get some support and do the real troubleshooting.

This video is a temp, with incomplete narration, but you'll see what's going on.

 

[Frank Langer]

Arrived at the boat Friday to find the bilge brimming, which is unprecedented. My daughter Alex was with me and we commenced pumping out, which took the Whale and the diaphragm pump nearly 40 minutes. The 38 bilge is relatively deep and long.

I quickly discovered that the auto function of the Water Witch 101 electronic float switch had failed. I figured bad WW reviews had caught up to me, but it was only a failed butt connector after five years of service.

So I have a working auto bilge pump again.

The greater issue is, what happened? I can only guess it was the dripless shaft seal. This new unit was installed last year by an expensive boatyard. I will send the initial clip from the video below to the boatyard for comment, and try to get them to come to the boat and inspect their work. Frankly it looks OK to me. Maybe someone will comment on whether the pressure of the bellows on the rotating plate seems adequate.

Why would the dripless flood when it never has before? Well, I changed the zinc on the heat exchanger last week, and in flopping around down there I likely banged and dislodged the bellows. I usually do. Maybe that was the cause, although I don't know why it would continue to leak after temporary interference was over.

Of course it's Fourth of July weekend, which is always when such issues arise. I'll have to check the bilge daily until I can get some support and do the real troubleshooting.

This video is a temp, with incomplete narration, but you'll see what's going on.

Christian,
The tech support at PSS shaft seal in Seattle are very knowledgeable and helpful. They can tell you how to adjust the tension on the bellows. I think that advice may also be available on their website. It's not complicated.
Also, the tension on the bellows in your video looks much too easy, as you surmised, so I would adjust it. But I would also look for any additional cause of the water on the bilge, because although the bellows pressure is suspect, it did stop water ingress in your video.
Frank

 

[Loren Beach]

Are you certain that the problem was that the bellows failed to maintain enough contact? Seems like it would be just fine (and watertight) when the boat is parked in the slip with the shaft still. Just for fun, have you looked at all other hoses that lead to below-water level thru hulls, and grabbed and fondled each one? (How rude!)
Good thing you check the bilge often; we do that every time we board, just out of habit.

Also good that stalwart crew proved that the "Gusher" hand pump would indeed.... "gush" !

 

[Dave G.]

I agree with you & Frank that the bellows is not tight enough against the SS collar. The collar will have to be adjusted to spec. The caveat is you will need to replace the locking screws when you do as they are one use only according to PSS anyway. I'm guessing it was easily dislodged by a slight bump.The bellow adjustment specs are also on their website.

 

[Christian Williams]

Another insight into what you get when you hire a boatyard to install something critical.

If I had installed the dripless myself I would know it intimately. I didn't (not permitted by the yard), so I don't.

And yeah, I checked all the hoses and throughhulls, and the head and the infamous sink drain and they were innocent.

 

[Loren Beach]

and they were innocent.

Not any more..

 

[Frank Langer]

I agree with you & Frank that the bellows is not tight enough against the SS collar. The collar will have to be adjusted to spec. The caveat is you will need to replace the locking screws when you do as they are one use only according to PSS anyway. I'm guessing it was easily dislodged by a slight bump.The bellow adjustment specs are also on their website.

They will need a new set of set screws. There are two, and then two more on top of those to secure the first two. I think they are 5/16" setscrews, available at any chandlery, but best to check on the website or with their tech support, to ensure my memory is correct.
Frank

 

[bgary]

I had the local boatyard replace my dripless (in 2021) and they did not install it with NEARLY the compression of the bellows that PSS recommended. I found that if anything touched the unit, water would spew, and the water pressure was sometimes enough to keep the thing from re-sealing. Worrisome

Hopefully some tidbits here will help you diagnose. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/dripless-diagnostics.928/

And, as Frank says, the people at PSS are awesome. They may even send you a free/replacement set of set-screws for when you make your adjustments.

B

 

[Christian Williams]

Jeez, Bruce, my experience almost exactly the same. Re https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/dripless-diagnostics.928/

If I'd seen your writeup my analysis would've been much reassured. But as it happens in August, 2021, I was floating in a slip in Oahu.

There seems to be no Ericson mystery not explicated by the forums.

I will get the new set screws and increase the compression. As in Bruce's case, there is currently hardly any compression at all, and I recall noting that it was like that when the boat was launched last year.

 

[ConchyDug]

This is the second one of these that I know of that has leaked/slipped/lost compression in the past couple months. A friend had one slip on his way to Martinique made a huge mess. I agree with everyone about getting new set screws. I've started keeping a fresh set on the boat in case it decides to slide.

PYI Inc. | PSS Installation Instructions

Step by step instructions on how to install a PSS Shaft Seal.

www.shaftseal.com

The install instructions have clear language about replacing the set screws. When a tech writer says "Do not" it's usually a pretty good idea to follow that verbatim. I mean that's how I approach working on commercial aircraft but boat yard techs may roll a little differently.

 

[Nick J]

I can only guess it was the dripless shaft seal.

It definitely looks like the compression is not correct and needs to be addressed, but have you ruled out all other sources of water? Is it sea water? Maybe a fresh water leak is contributing to the problem as well. My curiosity is rooted in two places

• I modeled my system, including the remote pumps, water witch, and dripless shaft seal, off your work and I've been really happy with the outcome.
• After rebuilding my fresh water system, I'm amazed at how susceptible the system is to leaks. Even with crimped PEX plumbing and fitting designed to be in a boat's fresh water system, I'm still finding leaks

Did your shower bilge pump keep the water below the cabin sole?

@ConchyDug, great ide on keeping an extra set of set screws onboard. I've read the instructions and importance of replacing the set screws many times, but embarrassingly never made the connection to keeping an extra set onboard. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Loren Beach]

After rebuilding my fresh water system, I'm amazed at how susceptible the system is to leaks. Even with crimped PEX plumbing and fitting designed to be in a boat's fresh water system, I'm still finding leaks

Being enamored of 'mature technology ' I went with old fashioned barbed fittings and clamps when I reformatted our whole water system many years ago. No leaks anywhere.
I replaced the OEM Qest gray tubing with bright yellow hose used for air respirator supply systems, with fiber reinforcing and rated to about 200+ psi. It clamps nicely with standard hose clamps. Local industrial hose/fitting supply store steered me to it because it was considerably less per foot than marine/boating water hose.

 

[Kenneth K]

Why would the dripless flood when it never has before? Well, I changed the zinc on the heat exchanger last week, and in flopping around down there I likely banged and dislodged the bellows. I usually do. Maybe that was the cause, although I don't know why it would continue to leak after temporary interference was over.

Inadequate pressure on the bellows does sound like a likely culprit. Also, when the bellows is "burped," accidentally or otherwise, I think debris from the shaft log and/or salt crystals on the carbon seals may sometimes need to be cleared/cleaned-out to allow the seals to reseat fully.

 

[bgary]

This is the second one of these that I know of that has leaked/slipped/lost compression in the past couple months.

BTW, a cheap insurance policy is to put a shaft-clamp on the shaft head of the disc, so that even if the set-screws slip there's "something else" holding the disc in place.

I ordered stainless-steel "clamping two-piece shaft collars" from McMaster-Carr, cost about 20 bucks and worth it...

B

 

[southofvictor]

Glad you caught it Christian, that‘s a bummer. I’m going to be sure to double check the compression on our yard-installed PSS asap.

I have a hose clamp doing what bgary recommends above, it looks like you do as well. People have told me that a hose clamp will do the job if the set screws fail but Ive always wondered. Do you think that could have had anything to do with it?

 

[Christian Williams]

I think I put the hose clamp on, after the boat was launched. I am convinced the bellows compression was as the yard intended. I think it;s 3/4" in the PSS 1" shaft chart--but there is also a vague comment to the effect that more compression than that is fine "if needed."*

So the yard followed basic specs and didn't look back.

I guess if they don't/can't/won't, we should. lt burns my butt to conclude that I just wasn't paying enough attention.

*The dimensions provided in the "bellows compression chart" are average figures and are provided as a guide. The EXACT compression amounts required can vary due to different types of engine mounts and water pressure being fed to the seal. If you experience any spray or mist following the break-in period, make sure that the bellows have been compressed properly. If so, add 1/4" of compression to the seal, and soon the mist should disappear. Keep adjusting until the spray or mist stops.

I have had a little occasional spray, but "not enough to worry about."

 

[Kenneth K]

Anybody have an online source for extra set screws? Might be nice to keep an extra set or two on aboard.

 

[bgary]

Anybody have an online source for extra set screws? Might be nice to keep an extra set or two on aboard.

Set Screw Kit

This Set Screw Kit comes with the necessary set screws and thread lock to install or adjust the stainless steel rotor of the PSS Shaft Seal. This kit includes six stainless steel cupped point set screws and thread lock.

store.pyiinc.com

 

[Dave G.]

This is the second one of these that I know of that has leaked/slipped/lost compression in the past couple months.

FYI, PSS also sells SS locking collars for additional holding power(insurance) if you have space for it. It looks like whoever installed Christian's used a hose clamp on the shaft for that purpose maybe? Link below ....

Shaft Retention Collar

The PYI Shaft Retention collar assists in keeping the shaft and rudder in the boat in the event of a coupling failure. Available for 3/4" to 3"shafts.

store.pyiinc.com

 

[Christian Williams]

I ordered two screw sets @ $5 each. Judging from the number of (positive) reviews, it is apparently pretty common for PSS seals to require subsequent adjustment. Owners report development of spray from the rotor, which suggests the screws can loosen over time despite proper installation.

Added later: or maybe it suggests initial installation had the bellows compression inadequate.