Interesting question
I seem to recall that Raymarine sells a different drive for below-decks installations, even tho their control head looks very similar in some models.
While it's interesting to imagine some sort of Mcgyver-ish way to mate the wheel pilot motor up to a rudder shaft, I could see it self destructing in short order. As I see it (and I am certainly no authority) putting a direct ram or another drive right on the rudder post moves up the force needed by magnitudes. Remember that your wheel pilot drive is putting force on the wheel about a foot or so from the shaft center on the wheel axle. Then that wheel is exerting about a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio of force on the actual rudder post.
So the small electric drive motor on the wheel can be smaller in hp.
When you look over the AP below-decks ram that works on a very short "tiller arm" right on the rudder shaft under a cockpit, that's one powerful hydraulic or linear drive DC motor.
OTOH, I too often wonder about the huge difference in price going from a $1200. cockpit AP to a below-decks model for about 3K or 4K.
Loren
I seem to recall that Raymarine sells a different drive for below-decks installations, even tho their control head looks very similar in some models.
While it's interesting to imagine some sort of Mcgyver-ish way to mate the wheel pilot motor up to a rudder shaft, I could see it self destructing in short order. As I see it (and I am certainly no authority) putting a direct ram or another drive right on the rudder post moves up the force needed by magnitudes. Remember that your wheel pilot drive is putting force on the wheel about a foot or so from the shaft center on the wheel axle. Then that wheel is exerting about a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio of force on the actual rudder post.
So the small electric drive motor on the wheel can be smaller in hp.
When you look over the AP below-decks ram that works on a very short "tiller arm" right on the rudder shaft under a cockpit, that's one powerful hydraulic or linear drive DC motor.
OTOH, I too often wonder about the huge difference in price going from a $1200. cockpit AP to a below-decks model for about 3K or 4K.
Loren
Randy Rutledge
Sustaining Member
Remember that the wheel drive unit is a belt drive with the belt slipping when you are steering the boat and a clutch lever to engage the drive. Below deck the clutch would not be where you could release it to disengage the unit.
The motor is very small and depends on the gear advantage of the motor gear and wheel ring which is another 30 to 1 ratio and adding the 3-1 of the helm that is a 90 to 1 ratio for the motor.
The motor is very small and depends on the gear advantage of the motor gear and wheel ring which is another 30 to 1 ratio and adding the 3-1 of the helm that is a 90 to 1 ratio for the motor.
Lucky Dog
Member III
Good points...there is always some details that come after the idea.
So what about the tiller auto pilot. Have a tiller under the deck, perhaps pointing perpendicular to the center line. Or is the engage, disengage still a detail.
Is ther under deck motorized that much better than all the other ways? Three times better?
our boat is apart and anything is possible right now as it is frezzing outside and I have only dreams to keep me warm.
So what about the tiller auto pilot. Have a tiller under the deck, perhaps pointing perpendicular to the center line. Or is the engage, disengage still a detail.
Is ther under deck motorized that much better than all the other ways? Three times better?
our boat is apart and anything is possible right now as it is frezzing outside and I have only dreams to keep me warm.
mherrcat
Contributing Partner
I think it is going to depend on the size of your boat and the displacement. The wheel pilot you show a picture of is only rated for up to 16,500lbs laden displacement.
Raymarine has an "Autopilot System Builder" application on their website that might help.
Your boat looks like a 35? When I input 35ft as the boat size in the "System Builder" it immediately recommends a below-deck unit. The 35 lists a displacement of 11,600lbs, so figuring another 20% for gear, etc. you are at 13,920lbs, so the Smartpilot X-5 Wheel might work, if you don't mind it being above deck...
Raymarine has an "Autopilot System Builder" application on their website that might help.
Your boat looks like a 35? When I input 35ft as the boat size in the "System Builder" it immediately recommends a below-deck unit. The 35 lists a displacement of 11,600lbs, so figuring another 20% for gear, etc. you are at 13,920lbs, so the Smartpilot X-5 Wheel might work, if you don't mind it being above deck...
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When you start looking at component pricing for autopilot you will find that the belowdecks drive, whether screw, hydraulic or servo, is the most expensive part of the system. There is a reason. All you have to do is look at the thrust specs for any of them. Most would have no problem snapping your arm like a twig. The wheel pilot is geared down at the belt and then through the steering system. Just imagine how much force it takes to move a loaded rudder when the tiller arm is only 10" or less?
I installed a Simrad belowdecks on my E38. It is easily the best upgrade I have done to the boat. You do not realize how much you will use it IF its a good system. The Simrad will steer the boat in any sea state. I repeat, ANY sea state. I use it all the time. Makes singlehanding a breeze. Any sail more than a few hours can get tedious if you are stuck steering full time. Its even worse if the weather/sea is not cooperating. Most wheel-pilot setups I've seen or read about do not have the power to steer when the going gets rough. Unfortunatly thats when you need it most.
The downside is cost. The Simrad cost me $4K+. And that was me installing it. Still worth every penny.
RT
I installed a Simrad belowdecks on my E38. It is easily the best upgrade I have done to the boat. You do not realize how much you will use it IF its a good system. The Simrad will steer the boat in any sea state. I repeat, ANY sea state. I use it all the time. Makes singlehanding a breeze. Any sail more than a few hours can get tedious if you are stuck steering full time. Its even worse if the weather/sea is not cooperating. Most wheel-pilot setups I've seen or read about do not have the power to steer when the going gets rough. Unfortunatly thats when you need it most.
The downside is cost. The Simrad cost me $4K+. And that was me installing it. Still worth every penny.
RT
Couldn't agree more with Rob. Unfortunately there is no cheap easy way to add an autopilot.... at least not one you can rely on. Like Rob's Simrad my Raymarine can steer in any conditions. And way better than any crew. At times it's a matter of safety.
The Wheeldrive option on the helm will work but my friends have replaced their wheel drive 2 times on an E38 and they hate the constant noise when it's driving.
Rudder post loads can be enormous and only below deck drive units are designed for these loads. It's worth the investment
The Wheeldrive option on the helm will work but my friends have replaced their wheel drive 2 times on an E38 and they hate the constant noise when it's driving.
Rudder post loads can be enormous and only below deck drive units are designed for these loads. It's worth the investment
I have a Raymarine ST6000 Plus on my E-380. Convenience is great, especially when hoisting the main and tacking which take me away from the helm when I am solo. On the negative side, heavy air and chop cause it to malfunction. The auto-tacking feature works great in light air, but when it picks up to 16+ knots, it's not reliable.
Vince Benn
Wild Blue
1997 E-380 #22
Vince Benn
Wild Blue
1997 E-380 #22
mherrcat
Contributing Partner
Are you referring to the Raymarine Wheelpilot making noise? I have a Wheelpilot and the only noise it makes is a very slight "click" (not even a click really) when course corrections are made. Hardly annoying. If you turn the unit on without engaging the wheel clutch it will make noise as the motor turns without engaging the wheel ring. If the unit is constantly making corrections then it is either operating at its limit (the boat is overpowering the autopilot) or the "response" level needs to be adjusted. If the boat is not balanced correctly by sail trim the autopilot will be constantly fighting the boat's weather or lee helm.
I agree that as the wind and wave state increase the Raymarine pilot tends not to track as well. Balancing the boat helps. I have also found that it does not track as well downwind as upwind.
I agree that as the wind and wave state increase the Raymarine pilot tends not to track as well. Balancing the boat helps. I have also found that it does not track as well downwind as upwind.
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Wheel Pilot running at start up.
Mark and all, This may be painfully obvious to everyone else, but this muddleheaded fool was only enlightened to that "pre-running" feature a mere two or three years ago (have had one fitted to our boat for 15 years). Apparently it's designed to spread belt wear randomly over it's entire length instead of using the same section time and time again. Happy Holidays, Glyn
Mark and all, This may be painfully obvious to everyone else, but this muddleheaded fool was only enlightened to that "pre-running" feature a mere two or three years ago (have had one fitted to our boat for 15 years). Apparently it's designed to spread belt wear randomly over it's entire length instead of using the same section time and time again. Happy Holidays, Glyn
mherrcat
Contributing Partner
I wasn't aware that the autopilot did what you describe when initially powered up. I turn it on from the breaker panel in the cabin and the only thing I hear is a beep from the control head. I'll have to have someone turn it on while I am in the cockpit to see if my motor runs on power up. The motor running that I was referring to is related to switching from the "Standby" mode to the "Auto" mode at the control head after the unit is already powered up.
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brianb00
O - 34
Above deck sol'n - hydraulic drive
Possibly some ideas here that can help:
I have played with several AP solutions on my Olson 34. I am not happy with below deck installs as when something goes wrong at sea you find yourself alone in a very small space trying to solve the problem. Also, exposing a carbon rudder post and attaching a $500 added tiller arm seems to add to the possible failure mechanisms. I wanted the power and security of hydraulics, and the ability to use a redundant solution, at hand above deck. I also wanted to quick disconnect the cylinder completely from the tiller to eliminate drag.
My solution is shown in the attached photo. This is a hydraulic cylinder used in the power boat business mounted on an added box that is quickly removable from the deck via hard points I added to the transom cabinets, using stainless hardware, in a quick connect fashion. The tiller drops onto a pin mounted on the Teleflex cylinder drive plate. Installed in the tiller is a brass bearing sleeve to handle the load.
I usually don't leave this on board and attach when going out single handing. Install time is about 3 minutes. It uses the Type 1 pump as specified by many AP manuf. The cylinder was sized to match the reversing pump. The unit also contains the rudder reference unit, also home made, and therefore eliminating another worry, the below deck reference that is prone to failure.
I built an electronic interface to the drive motor so that any AP (B and G/RM/NKE) can be easily interfaced by simply attaching the drive signal from the AP to the interface. The interface is very robust, meaning the H drive is built with over-sized components to assure electronics don't burn out even if something silly happens, breakers go first.
I currently use an ST4000 soon to be replaced with the RM Tiller Pilot X5. The X5 control will drive my hydraulic unit or the native Tiller pilot. This gives me additional redundancy (two drive units) and the ability in a calm sea state, to operate at lower power (Tiller pilot). My ST2000 tiller pilot is still usable as well, giving me 3 pilots to choose from.
I have become a firm believer in hydraulic above deck drive. It is nearly immune to salt water intrusion as the only thing exposed to the sea spray is a cylinder full of hydraulic fluid. The failure modes of the typical above deck solution is gone, electronics that suffer from water intrusion and condensation. The drive is scary powerful. I once got leg between tiller and settee, I wasn't sure what component would fail first, tiller or leg.
The unit now has approx. 1000 single handing ocean miles under its belt.The pic., not great, has an ST4000 disconnected while doing work on the unit. Cost of this install was less than $500 total for the hydraulics, pump, home brew electronics ($25), connectors, home made container (birch ply + glass + liberal west system epoxy). Bulk of cost was the cylinder.
I could go on about the reliability about RM electronics in ocean passages, but won't start that here.
Brian
S/V Redsky SF Bay
Possibly some ideas here that can help:
I have played with several AP solutions on my Olson 34. I am not happy with below deck installs as when something goes wrong at sea you find yourself alone in a very small space trying to solve the problem. Also, exposing a carbon rudder post and attaching a $500 added tiller arm seems to add to the possible failure mechanisms. I wanted the power and security of hydraulics, and the ability to use a redundant solution, at hand above deck. I also wanted to quick disconnect the cylinder completely from the tiller to eliminate drag.
My solution is shown in the attached photo. This is a hydraulic cylinder used in the power boat business mounted on an added box that is quickly removable from the deck via hard points I added to the transom cabinets, using stainless hardware, in a quick connect fashion. The tiller drops onto a pin mounted on the Teleflex cylinder drive plate. Installed in the tiller is a brass bearing sleeve to handle the load.
I usually don't leave this on board and attach when going out single handing. Install time is about 3 minutes. It uses the Type 1 pump as specified by many AP manuf. The cylinder was sized to match the reversing pump. The unit also contains the rudder reference unit, also home made, and therefore eliminating another worry, the below deck reference that is prone to failure.
I built an electronic interface to the drive motor so that any AP (B and G/RM/NKE) can be easily interfaced by simply attaching the drive signal from the AP to the interface. The interface is very robust, meaning the H drive is built with over-sized components to assure electronics don't burn out even if something silly happens, breakers go first.
I currently use an ST4000 soon to be replaced with the RM Tiller Pilot X5. The X5 control will drive my hydraulic unit or the native Tiller pilot. This gives me additional redundancy (two drive units) and the ability in a calm sea state, to operate at lower power (Tiller pilot). My ST2000 tiller pilot is still usable as well, giving me 3 pilots to choose from.
I have become a firm believer in hydraulic above deck drive. It is nearly immune to salt water intrusion as the only thing exposed to the sea spray is a cylinder full of hydraulic fluid. The failure modes of the typical above deck solution is gone, electronics that suffer from water intrusion and condensation. The drive is scary powerful. I once got leg between tiller and settee, I wasn't sure what component would fail first, tiller or leg.
The unit now has approx. 1000 single handing ocean miles under its belt.The pic., not great, has an ST4000 disconnected while doing work on the unit. Cost of this install was less than $500 total for the hydraulics, pump, home brew electronics ($25), connectors, home made container (birch ply + glass + liberal west system epoxy). Bulk of cost was the cylinder.
I could go on about the reliability about RM electronics in ocean passages, but won't start that here.
Brian
S/V Redsky SF Bay
Attachments
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Autopilot.jpg
That is a very innovative system but I still question the logic of having it all exposed. I sure don't want to look at the AP system in the cockpit of my boat. I also don't see a reasonable way to connect such a system to a boat with wheel steering. Your setup, the ram anyway, could be done belowdecks on a wheel system just as any other AP setup but cheaper with your parts. RT
brianb00
O - 34
I agree, it can all be moved below deck. Point I was attempting to make as why I choose to leave this above deck:
o Cost greatly reduced. Price components and labor to install the hydraulics below deck.
o Ease of completely disconnecting RAM from rudder post to eliminate drag.
o Readily accessible in case of failure.
o Uses existing tiller connection to rudder post (cost/point of failure)
Yes, the "looks" may not be to everyone's liking, but I often sail alone, looks are of now consequence. I am easily mesmerized by small shiny objects and autopilots in action.
I know too many sailors who on long passages have had to work on the AP, of various types, at sea. On an Olson 34 you would find yourself in a very precarious and dangerous position to access a below deck system.
Have a great sail in the new year
o Cost greatly reduced. Price components and labor to install the hydraulics below deck.
o Ease of completely disconnecting RAM from rudder post to eliminate drag.
o Readily accessible in case of failure.
o Uses existing tiller connection to rudder post (cost/point of failure)
Yes, the "looks" may not be to everyone's liking, but I often sail alone, looks are of now consequence. I am easily mesmerized by small shiny objects and autopilots in action.
I know too many sailors who on long passages have had to work on the AP, of various types, at sea. On an Olson 34 you would find yourself in a very precarious and dangerous position to access a below deck system.
Have a great sail in the new year
Accessibility
To add a little perspective, I have been inside the stern section of my O-34, from either side. It took me a while to work my way in and some more time to ease my way out.
The reading on the fun-o-meter for this exercise was low. And that's a calm day at dockside.
However.... I have also been back in the quarterberth area where you access the quadrant on a late model E-32, and quadrant access was magnitudes worse than my boat. It was literally difficult to get an arm into some of that area.
IF we ever have some "spare" BUC's, we would like to have a below-decks AP... but that's because our boat came with the wheel anyway. Tiller-steered boats DO have their advantages!
Fair Winds,
Loren
To add a little perspective, I have been inside the stern section of my O-34, from either side. It took me a while to work my way in and some more time to ease my way out.
The reading on the fun-o-meter for this exercise was low. And that's a calm day at dockside.
However.... I have also been back in the quarterberth area where you access the quadrant on a late model E-32, and quadrant access was magnitudes worse than my boat. It was literally difficult to get an arm into some of that area.
IF we ever have some "spare" BUC's, we would like to have a below-decks AP... but that's because our boat came with the wheel anyway. Tiller-steered boats DO have their advantages!
Fair Winds,
Loren
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CPT Autopilot
This is a very interesting thread I too am currently looking into installing a new autopilot on my e-38. CPT looks to build a strong and simple option not to costly with great reviews. although not a beauty in the cockpit simple and dependable are important factors to me. is there anyone currently using this AP?
http://www.cptautopilot.com/
This is a very interesting thread I too am currently looking into installing a new autopilot on my e-38. CPT looks to build a strong and simple option not to costly with great reviews. although not a beauty in the cockpit simple and dependable are important factors to me. is there anyone currently using this AP?
http://www.cptautopilot.com/
Autopilots
Dog,
When I think of autopilots, which are maybe THE most important piece of equipment for a shorthanded offshore sailor (even if you have 4 aboard), and all the time people spend on their design, I think of the guys doing the around the world solo or doublehanded races, or the mini 6.5 transat guys who are sailing fully sponsored boats with no budget limits (at least for this type of thing). These guys STILL struggle with getting the autopilots to be reliable over the required range of conditions, and have lots of breakdowns..Of course they are asking the autpilots to drive the boat at 20+ knots in 35+ knots or more of breeze in very big waves with big sails up, but the point is that the technology is not simple to implement in the real world, and I think it is unlikely you are going to come with a functional solution on your own given it remains a challenge for those in the business (no offense meant!).
Get a proven design, install it per the manufacturer's instructions and worry about something else.
I am no fan of the wheel mounted systems for other than day sailing boats-it is a mess and ugly to look at, but for a cheap, basic solution I guess they work-but that is certainly not a heavy-duty type of autopilot if heading offshore.
The peanut gallery has spoken! :nerd:
Dog,
When I think of autopilots, which are maybe THE most important piece of equipment for a shorthanded offshore sailor (even if you have 4 aboard), and all the time people spend on their design, I think of the guys doing the around the world solo or doublehanded races, or the mini 6.5 transat guys who are sailing fully sponsored boats with no budget limits (at least for this type of thing). These guys STILL struggle with getting the autopilots to be reliable over the required range of conditions, and have lots of breakdowns..Of course they are asking the autpilots to drive the boat at 20+ knots in 35+ knots or more of breeze in very big waves with big sails up, but the point is that the technology is not simple to implement in the real world, and I think it is unlikely you are going to come with a functional solution on your own given it remains a challenge for those in the business (no offense meant!
).Get a proven design, install it per the manufacturer's instructions and worry about something else.
I am no fan of the wheel mounted systems for other than day sailing boats-it is a mess and ugly to look at, but for a cheap, basic solution I guess they work-but that is certainly not a heavy-duty type of autopilot if heading offshore.
The peanut gallery has spoken! :nerd:
Going with the Raymarine
Given the boating that we do in protected waters with only the occasional coastal summer trip, I just bought a new Raymarine X-5 system.
The Autohelm A4000s that I put in back in '95 is still working, but our electronics dealer tells me that the algorithms in the new ones are vastly superior.
(We have gotten tired of the occasional "snake waking" in the old one when it takes a minute or so to settle down.)
I have had a logic board die one time years ago in the old one and it took close to $300 to replace it. I figured that technology has moved on enough that it's time for an upgrade.
Yeah, I know. Not as good as a below-decks version, but for a bit over $1200 (I was offered the same discount deal as my Ericson dock neighbor...!) it seems like the right time and right product for us.
Now if I really had $4K to spare for a below decks ram... things would be different!
But then, in the end, ALL solutions are temporary, as some sage once observed.
Loren
Given the boating that we do in protected waters with only the occasional coastal summer trip, I just bought a new Raymarine X-5 system.
The Autohelm A4000s that I put in back in '95 is still working, but our electronics dealer tells me that the algorithms in the new ones are vastly superior.
(We have gotten tired of the occasional "snake waking" in the old one when it takes a minute or so to settle down.)
I have had a logic board die one time years ago in the old one and it took close to $300 to replace it. I figured that technology has moved on enough that it's time for an upgrade.
Yeah, I know. Not as good as a below-decks version, but for a bit over $1200 (I was offered the same discount deal as my Ericson dock neighbor...!) it seems like the right time and right product for us.
Now if I really had $4K to spare for a below decks ram... things would be different!
But then, in the end, ALL solutions are temporary, as some sage once observed.
Loren
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RayMarine-E12201-Raymarine-Smartpilot-X-5-Wheel-img1.jpg
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Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Loren...
Loren,
Would you be willing to sell a part from your old autopilot? I am looking for the black circular section which contains the belt, the piece that attaches directly to the steering wheel. I live in British Columbia and would be prepared to pay the shipping as well. However, as we are retired and on a fixed budget, the price for this old part would need to be quite reasonable. You can email me if you like at: franklanger@live.ca
Thanks,
Frank
Loren,
Would you be willing to sell a part from your old autopilot? I am looking for the black circular section which contains the belt, the piece that attaches directly to the steering wheel. I live in British Columbia and would be prepared to pay the shipping as well. However, as we are retired and on a fixed budget, the price for this old part would need to be quite reasonable. You can email me if you like at: franklanger@live.ca
Thanks,
Frank