auto pilot

Navman

Member III
Hello all,
I am going to install an autopilot on my 1986 E-38. I believe that the above decks unit will be in the way due to the relatively confined space of the "T" well. I am therefore contemplating a below decks unit. Due to the costs I will also most likely be doing the install myself. My plans for use include coastal and offshore. What are other E-38 owners experiences and are there an recommendations for or against certain manufacturers, drive units and mounting scenarios? What type of drive unit works best and easiest? I am currently considering the Raymarine EV200 series with a type 1 linear drive unit. Thanks for any help or direction.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Hello all,
I am going to install an autopilot on my 1986 E-38. I believe that the above decks unit will be in the way due to the relatively confined space of the "T" well. I am therefore contemplating a below decks unit. Due to the costs I will also most likely be doing the install myself. My plans for use include coastal and offshore. What are other E-38 owners experiences and are there an recommendations for or against certain manufacturers, drive units and mounting scenarios? What type of drive unit works best and easiest? I am currently considering the Raymarine EV200 series with a type 1 linear drive unit. Thanks for any help or direction.
While I can't make any recommendations about the E-38 specifically, I'd strongly suggest that you look into the offerings by Pelagic Autopilot (pelagicautopilot.com). I just installed one on my tiller-steered E26 and it is a serious offshore unit, as you'll discover if you research these. I realize your boat is not tiller steered and you would probably have to look elsewhere for the drive unit. However, the Pelagic control hardware can run any number of drive units, including the Raymarine linear drives. At any rate, it would be worth contacting Brian Boschma at pelagicautopilot.com for his advice. You'd find dealing with him far superior to the Kafkaesque nightmare called Raymarine tech support. (Take a look at this: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/trouble-raymarine-st1000-tillerpilot.185694/) When you contact Pelagic tech support with questions or concerns, you actually get the guy who designed the unit and has a personal investment in it.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
A "real" autopilot is better, but my Raymarine wheel pilot does not intrude on the cockpit space at all.

1-Wind from companionway.jpg
 
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Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
While I can't make any recommendations about the E-38 specifically, I'd strongly suggest that you look into the offerings by Pelagic Autopilot (pelagicautopilot.com). I just installed one on my tiller-steered E26 and it is a serious offshore unit, as you'll discover if you research these. I realize your boat is not tiller steered and you would probably have to look elsewhere for the drive unit. However, the Pelagic control hardware can run any number of drive units, including the Raymarine linear drives. At any rate, it would be worth contacting Brian Boschma at pelagicautopilot.com for his advice. You'd find dealing with him far superior to the Kafkaesque nightmare called Raymarine tech support. (Take a look at this: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/trouble-raymarine-st1000-tillerpilot.185694/) When you contact Pelagic tech support with questions or concerns, you actually get the guy who designed the unit and has a personal investment in it.
One installation with the L & S hydraulics: https://pelagicautopilot.com/<wbr>blogs/news/catalina-38-<wbr>installs-a-pelagic-driving-<wbr>and-l-s-below-deck-hydraulic-<wbr>cylinder
Another using a Raymarine linear drive, type 2: https://pelagicautopilot.com/<wbr>blogs/news/michael-from-his-<wbr>pearson-37-reports-in-off-<wbr>block-island-while-racing-<wbr>with-the-pelagic-and-spinnaker
 

Pat O'Connell

Member III
RayMarine

Hi Alan. Times sure do change. The late 70's we had a E25 CBoard with Apelco (Raytheon Value Line) Radio. We lived a few miles from the Raytheon Factory. The staff there were so nice to us that we wanted to buy everything Raytheon made. We could not afford it :{<))
We have a Raytheon St 60 Radar that has been trouble free for 20+ years and a Raytheon Autohelm that has been pretty good to for about twenty years. Weather is so bad in NH that we sure are not wearing out anything (yet.)
Best Regards
Pat 1981 E28+ Universal 5411
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Hi Alan. Times sure do change. The late 70's we had a E25 CBoard with Apelco (Raytheon Value Line) Radio. We lived a few miles from the Raytheon Factory. The staff there were so nice to us that we wanted to buy everything Raytheon made. We could not afford it :{<))
We have a Raytheon St 60 Radar that has been trouble free for 20+ years and a Raytheon Autohelm that has been pretty good to for about twenty years. Weather is so bad in NH that we sure are not wearing out anything (yet.)
Best Regards
Pat 1981 E28+ Universal 5411
Hi, Pat.

Glad you have had good service from your Raytheon Autohelm. Maybe they built them better 20 years ago compared to how they are now. I only bought my Raymarine to replace the one that came with my boat; this unit croaked a few months after bought the boat. Because there were no reasonably priced alternatives to it at the time, I went ahead and bought another Raymarine, but also purchased the West Marine extended warranty--something I typically don't do--figuring that it would probably break. Good thing I did, because the replacement Raymarine (now the second unit) started making painful noises and having difficulties moving the rod in one direction shortly after the Raymarine warranty expired. The one I have now (the third) works as well as they work, but none of these has ever performed well when the conditions become even slightly challenging. (I've messed with various settings and can make it more or less functional, but still not great.) Though I have not yet had the Pelagic long enough to really test it under difficult conditions, I have run it enough to see that the Raymarine is a toy by comparison.

Webb Chiles, who is circumnavigating in a Moore 24, has carried 4 Raymarines and one Pelagic (with a spare actuator, I believe). When one Raymarine breaks he pulls out one of his spares. The Pelagic has not failed at all. It appears that the only reason he bothers with the Raymarine is that it is quieter for when he is trying to sleep down below. He will also use sheet-to-tiller steering when he is trying to replenish his batteries, but that only works on certain courses and under particular conditions. I note that Chiles has an older actuator compared to the one Pelagic is now shipping, so I can't do an apples-to-apples comparison. But I have run these both side by side and I would say that my ST2000+ is not quieter than my Pelagic actuator, though it does have a lower pitch sound, so perhaps that is a factor. Just in the 10 hours or so that I've used it I have not found the sound from the actuator to be especially loud or otherwise objectionable, but I haven't tried sleeping below while it is steering the boat, either.
 

Pat O'Connell

Member III
Autohelm

Hi Alan. I bet all your observations are very valid. Our experiences are very different. We have used the Autohelm for twenty years but only when there is no or little wind for sailing and we are cruising during the hours of the day when the land has not heated up enough to give us a swest heater to manually sail with. Our season is soo short (Mid April to Mid Sep) that we really use the Autohelm only when we want to read and get somewhere. I have never even fussed with the adjustments they say are needed to autosail.
We recall in the 70's we had a lightening strike that fried the Apelco (Raytheon Import) Radio and the factory took the radio for a week.... Returned it to us with a smile and a handshake. Maybe those are the days that are done?? Appreciate your remarks very much!
Best Regards Pat 1981 E28+ Universal 5411
BTW: If you can clear this weather front in NH please do it. We are both retired and need to sail!
 
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gadangit

Member III
We just installed a Raymarine EV-200 with an Octopus hydraulic drive. Going to wind with the boat balanced it drives better than I do (yeah, not really saying much.) It is amazing how little the wheel actually turns to keep the boat going straight. I have not had it on long enough to experiment with any of the settings, so right out of the box it is pretty good.

I picked the non-Raymarine hydraulic drive figuring that anybody trying to move someone from a matched "default" linear drive has to be building a superior product. Very few moving parts and none of them plastic.

I had to build a mount for the ram on the hull and a G10 attachment to the quadrant. So far, so good.

The only downside is the restriction on the last 10 degrees of rudder due to the shortness of the ram throw. I miss that extra turn in the tight spaces around the dock.

Chris
 

lnill

Member III
Hello all,
I am going to install an autopilot on my 1986 E-38. I believe that the above decks unit will be in the way due to the relatively confined space of the "T" well. I am therefore contemplating a below decks unit. Due to the costs I will also most likely be doing the install myself. My plans for use include coastal and offshore. What are other E-38 owners experiences and are there an recommendations for or against certain manufacturers, drive units and mounting scenarios? What type of drive unit works best and easiest? I am currently considering the Raymarine EV200 series with a type 1 linear drive unit. Thanks for any help or direction.
I have a 1987 E38 with exactly the setup you mention. There was an old Autohelm which was failing on the boat when I bought it. I kept the old linear drive unit (about 25 years old) and just replaced everything else. It has been trouble free.
One comment about Raymarine. They are better than they were a few years back. They are now owned by FLIR now so more stable financially. I have a guy that helps me who was RM certified. When I call tech support I get people reading a script. When he calls he gets guys that fix the problem right away.
If the weather improves I would like to get to my boat this weekend. I could take pics of the install if you wish.
 
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fool

Member III
I have a 1987 E38 with exactly the setup you mention. There was an old Autohelm which was failing on the boat when I bought it. I kept the old linear drive unit (about 25 years old) and just replaced everything else.

Some older linear drives are not the same as others as I had the unfortunate experience to learn last year. Replacing the early generation Raymarine 6000 unit (dials only) made a (30 minutes on hold) call to Raymarine to see if my old ram would work. Explained exactly what I had "not the ST6000, the early 6000, two dials, no digital readout" and asked specifically about compatibility of the EV-200 with the old ram. The tech reassured me the the old ram would work "oh yeah, the design is the same going back to the beginning" so I dropped a bundle of $$cash$$ into the water to pony up for the below deck autopilot upgrade.

So when the unit arrived I spent a few hours practicing my below deck & small compartment yoga. Could not figure out how the EV wiring could possibly connect to the old linear drive. Called (25 minute hold time, they're getting better) Raymarine tech support again, explained (again) exactly what I was replacing and got the response "not compatible, you should have talked to me the first time" and before I could barely say "but, the other guy..." got hung-up on by the tech.

Hung-up upon. Excellent service Raymarine. (I did write up my excellent customer service experience and sent it into the tech supervisor via a very kind and sympathetic customer service operator. Still waiting for a call back a year and a half later. What's the likelihood the tech supervisor is the same [redacted-salty sailor like explanation of anatomically impossible events] that hung up on me?)

So I had to drop another $$grand$$ on a new linear ram drive. And turns out the [redacted, Nixon like expletives deleted] hang-up tech was correct. They changed the connecting wiring and moved the mounting bracket bolts about 1/2". Had to have a 1" extension welded onto the boat's mount, and then drill new bolt holes. Put in another 3/4's of a day of small compartment yoga, staring in close proximity at the peeling paint in my aft lazarette (reminder add painting the interior of the lazarette to to-do list), while braille fingering the mounting bolts into place and [redacted] [praying vigorously] installed and wired the new ram.

So now when you see me working on yet another project that has educational or religious benefit "oh god, not another life lesson" in the close proximity of youth or persons with delicate ears. I'll just shake my head and curse under my breath "Raymarine". The only cursed expletive that comes to mind to shake dried salt out of the sails but won't peel paint.

BTW, I still have the old 6000 (two dials, no digital readout) head and "early" type I linear ram scattered in various compartments if you need parts, pins, or mounts for repair. Probably not for much longer though, as rounding them up and sending them off for recycling has just been added to the to-do list.
 
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Navman

Member III
autopilot

Thanks for all of the great responses. Inill, I would be very appreciative of photos. I am interested in how the ram is mounted on the hull and how it is attached (to the quadrant or shaft). Raymarine is rapidly slipping in the "ratings" after hearing all of the horror stories with "customer service" I am looking further into the Octopus or the Pelagic. Then there is the question of hydraulic drive or linear. Is it true that one type is quieter and consumes less energy ? From the sounds of it, most components are able to be mixed such as Raymarine for the display, brains, and controller and then the motor and ram unit by others? I do not embrace the idea of loosing 10 degrees of steerage on port and starboard as with the Pelagic. One of the things I like most about the deep keel on our boats is the very tight turning radius. I am not adverse to "building" a system using different components but I do wonder about compatibility and warranties. As I currently only have wind, speed and depth (original Signent)I am looking at the future and want a system which will integrate with future electronics such as a chart plotter. So many questions!
Thanks for all of your help everyone.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Thanks for all of the great responses. Inill, I would be very appreciative of photos. I am interested in how the ram is mounted on the hull and how it is attached (to the quadrant or shaft). Raymarine is rapidly slipping in the "ratings" after hearing all of the horror stories with "customer service" I am looking further into the Octopus or the Pelagic. Then there is the question of hydraulic drive or linear. Is it true that one type is quieter and consumes less energy ? From the sounds of it, most components are able to be mixed such as Raymarine for the display, brains, and controller and then the motor and ram unit by others? I do not embrace the idea of loosing 10 degrees of steerage on port and starboard as with the Pelagic. One of the things I like most about the deep keel on our boats is the very tight turning radius. I am not adverse to "building" a system using different components but I do wonder about compatibility and warranties. As I currently only have wind, speed and depth (original Signent)I am looking at the future and want a system which will integrate with future electronics such as a chart plotter. So many questions!
Thanks for all of your help everyone.
I'm unclear as to why you would lose 10 degrees with the Pelagic. Ideally, with whatever setup you have you would use a rudder position sensor that will provide rudder position feedback to the control unit. The Pelagic unit can use that feedback in knowing where the rudder is located so as not to drive it hard against the stops. The rudder sensor limit setting is fully programmable in the unit.

Edit: Oh, I see you were responding to an earlier post about a particular hydraulic drive. That was an issue with that particular drive, not the brains that controls it. You would simply need to get the correct drive unit that accommodates the full turning range, regardless of whether it's controlled by a Pelagic or a Raymarine or whatever.
 
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gadangit

Member III
My guess is he is mixing up the responses. I'm the one who mentioned losing the last 10 degrees of rudder swing due to the limitations of the throw on the Octopus drive. I still have 1.5 turns of the wheel lock to lock and I get 52 degrees of total rudder swing. I was used to getting more, I just have a new normal now.

Chris
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
My guess is he is mixing up the responses. I'm the one who mentioned losing the last 10 degrees of rudder swing due to the limitations of the throw on the Octopus drive. I still have 1.5 turns of the wheel lock to lock and I get 52 degrees of total rudder swing. I was used to getting more, I just have a new normal now.

Chris
Yeah, Chris, I figured it out after my initial comment. I added an edit to it and then just read your remarks.
 
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