12V Panel Questions - Ericson 25 Plus

[Mark Taylor]

New to me - 1983 25 Plus. Can anyone please advise the following on the 12V panel - See Pic attached:

~~ Upper Right Corner on panel - an "on/off" selector switch labeled "Sudbury" - What does it control?
~~ Left lower side. 3 toggle switches - top switch labeled "Masthead Light". What are the other two for & which direction for toggle is "on/off" ? This isnt that critical. Havent had the Nav lights on yet.

Just what I need. Another project !! Thanks for any help / knowledge you can share.

Mark Taylor @ Smith Mountain Lake, VA

 

[mherrcat]

At the risk of sounding flippant, just start flipping (haha!) switches and see what happens.
They have to do something...

 

[Glyn Judson]

What's with all the switches?

Mark, First of all, congratulations on the recent acquisition of your E25+. My wife and I owned and sailed one for six years, hull #515. She'll be tender to 9 degrees by design and will stiffen up after that, this right from the horses mouth, Bruce hisself. As to the switches, that Sudbury switch is for controlling the bilge fan for evacuating gasoline vapors from the bilge. Look for a clothes dryer typer hose lying in the bilge, trace that up to the fan and that's what the Sudbury switch is for. Even if your boat is fitted with an inboard diesel, Ericson still thought that every boat should have a bilge fan. Our boat had one as well, it was and still is diesel powered from the factory. Typically the ON position would be toward the tag identifying the switches function. So in your case, flipping them all to the right would be the ON position. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Glyn Judson]

Oops, I meant to the left.

Mark, Forgive me, I should have said, So in your case, flipping them all to the LEFT would be the ON position. Glyn

 

[Tom Metzger]

Mark - From looking at the panel it is obvious that the previous owner made lots of changes to the wiring. That means that there are two things to do: as Mark H said, flip switches and see what happens or pull out the panel and see where the wires go.

If you want my WAG it would be that the big switch goes to the outboard motor.

I would suggest that you buy an inexpensive volt/ohm meter so you can tell if circuits are energized and to help you trace wires. They are available from Harbor Freight for a few dollars or lots of other places.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-func...hftusa&utm_medium=hftusa&utm_campaign=buylink

There is a color code to help you, but it may not be good for any wires that the PO installed.

DC System Wiring
	E-32-3	E-34	E-35-3
Description	from dwg	actual	from dwg	Size
Cabin lights	Pink	Pink	Pink	14
Running lights	Gray	Gray	Gray	14
Bow light	Brown	Brown	Brown	14
Anchor light	Blue	Blue	Blue	14
Fore deck light	Yellow	Yellow	Yellow	14
Pedestal wires	Gray			14
Stereo	Blue-White	Direct		10
Instruments		Tan	Tan	14
Radio		Direct	Red-white	10
Pressure water pump	Purple	Blue	Purple	14
Bilge pump	Yellow	Red	Orange	10
Bilge pump - Manual		Red		10
Bilge pump - Auto		Black		10
Shower sump pump *	Orange	Yellow *	Yellow, Blue	10
Blower	Dark Blue	Dark Blue	Dark Blue	10
Opt LPG Stove	Gray-White	Gray-White	Gray-White	14
Opt Refrigeration	Red	Red	Red	10
Opt Elect. Head			Red	6
Fuel gauge	Orange			14
Speaker	Clear			18
Mast wire gnd	Black	Black	Black	14
Cabin & Running lights gnd	Black	Black	Black	14
Bilge pump gnd	Black	Black	Black	10
Pressure water gnd	Black	Black	Black	14
Blower gnd	Black	Black	Black	10
Shower sump pump gnd	Black	Black	Black	10
Opt LPG Stove gnd	Black	Black		14
Opt Refrigeration gnd	Black	Black	Black	10
Opt Elect. Head gnd			Black	6
Battery to panel switch	Red		Red	1/0
Panel switch to starter	Red		Red	1/0
Battery switch to panel		Red	Red	4
Battery to starter		Red		1/0
Batteries to engine gnd	Black	Black	Black	1/0
Panel gnd to engine gnd	Black	Black	Black	4
* Shower sump pump on E-34 wired to the Pressure Water pump breaker.

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I have this info and some wiring info from standards groups in an Excel file if you want it. Send me an EMAIL.

Good hunting.

 

[Mark Taylor]

Hey.. Thanks!

Finally had a chance to pull the panel this weekend. You were correct Glyn. The sudbury is a selector switch for the blower. Blower is not operating and my 12V tester was on the fritz - It's always something. By coincidence - bought a new tester at Harbor Freight yesterday - so will see next trip if it is the selector switch, blower, cockpit switch or the wiring..As most (actually all) the blower hose is pretty much toast & falling apart I got to get all up in there anyway..Thanks for the wiring color chart also!! Best Regards, Mark

 

[Glyn Judson]

Sudbury bilge fan switch.

Mark, I forgot to mention that even if a boat is fitted with a diesel, that bilge fan can be of use. Diesel engines like to breath cool air and on a hot day, the best we can do is to keep the environment around the engine in fresh air as much as possible. Depending upon where your bilge fan is located, merely removing the duct hose will convert the function of the fan into removing hot air from within. Mine is actually mounted directly beneath the port cowl vent as far up in the area as possible to capture hot air rising and pull it out. It's rated for continuous use (as yours surely is as well) and is also very handy on cold night passages to keep ones hands warm, well, the left hand at least. So don't scrap the fan altogether, press it into service as outlined above as long as it's near a vent. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[mherrcat]

Wish my exhaust fan was that easily accessible. Mine is under the quarter berth, accessed through a 6" inspection port...

All my duct hose needs replacing as well. Can't imagine how I am going to make that run that goes under the quarter berth...

 

[Glyn Judson]

Fan location.

Mark, My fan wasn't always near the port vent either, I relocated it there. It's a 3" fan adapted to a 4" cowl vent by means of a simple 3/4" plywood "donut" I crafted to mate the two together. So the fan now sits directly beneath my bronze mushroom vent and has no flex hose attached to it. Granted, the coaming is higher than my side deck but it still exhausts a ton of warm air located there anyhow. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Frank Langer]

Glyn,

I understand that a hose located high in the engine compartment will exhaust hot air better than one low down, but don't you think that the strength of the blower motor would suck enough air from down low as well that it would get all the air in the engine compartment circulating and cool it down as well--not as efficiently as if the hose were high, but still effective?

I think there is still a safety advantage in keeping the hose low in the event (quite unlikely, but still...) that there is a propane leak in the boat that needs to be exhausted, propane being heavier than air.

Any thoughts?

Frank

 

[Loren Beach]

Glyn,

I understand that a hose located high in the engine compartment will exhaust hot air better than one low down, but don't you think that the strength of the blower motor would suck enough air from down low as well that it would get all the air in the engine compartment circulating and cool it down as well--not as efficiently as if the hose were high, but still effective?

I think there is still a safety advantage in keeping the hose low in the event (quite unlikely, but still...) that there is a propane leak in the boat that needs to be exhausted, propane being heavier than air.

Any thoughts?
Frank

Until Glyn gets back from walking his dog, I have a "thought."

I relocated our engine compartment hose to the top area, very near the alternator, since it does not like heat. I was replacing all the old hose run anyway - cracked and brittle plastic material.

As far as exhausting the bilge, the engine air intake is not nearly that low in most boats, and a leak in the propane tank would vent over the side without risk, unless the tank installation is illegal.
We had propane cooking and heating on our prior boat, and whenever we were not using it the valve was closed manually back at the tank. That, and there was a sniffer-and-alarm that we tested regularly.

Loren

 

[Glyn Judson]

Bilge fan location.

Guys, Just make relocating your fan a fun hour-long project, it ain't all that difficult I don't care where it now is. Forget the dryer hose, actually get rid or it and simply mount the fan near or under a cowl vent. This all assumes that you have a diesel engine, a gas engine needs to have an intact hose led from the lowest part of the bilge to the fan. Loren makes a good point that if your bilge is lower than the engine bed, the hose needs to be down there or if not, may not be a solution to evacuating gasoline or propane vapors. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Emerald]

With a diesel and cooling as my primary concern, I did the opposite of Glyn supporting the dryer duct industry, and ran a piece from the "intake" cowl vent to the bottom aft area of the bilge/engine compartment and then another piece of that dryer duct stuff over to the top most part of the engine compartment to exhaust the heat via the blower to the cowl vent on the opposite side of the boat. When motoring, the air coming out the exhaust cowl vent is nice and warm.

 

[Tom Metzger]

I'm a very young man, and don't know the ways of the world,... but doesn't that diesel intake enough air for combustion to pretty much negate the effect of the blower?

I use the blower to exhaust rejected heat after I shut down the engine on hot days.

 

[Mark Taylor]

Bilge fan location

Thanks Glyn & all. Interesting discussion & several different view points on this & the bilge fan in general.. Yes, this 25+ of mine is diesel - yanmar 10hp I believe (I have only scratched the surface on the engine of this boat so far - meaning about enough to know it runs well & the oil looks good). This is my 2nd diesel - the first was a Universal on a Catalina 30.

I was taught many years ago (espically in the older A4 gas days) The bilge fan was a MUST to vent explosive vapors. No matter if the vapors are gas, propane or diesel and I do realize that diesel fumes are not nealy as dangerous as the other two. I hadnt thought about the cooling aspect of air flow for the engine from the fan on long run, hot days - but that is a good point to consider.

Guess I'm just an old dog and a little OCD when it comes to venting the bilge, engine compartment, & all those other nasty little closed up spaces. Fortunately the blower on the 25 is easily acessable under the quarter berh via a large opening. Actually this space is also the battery compartment on this boat. A few tight spaces to replace the hose runs I think, but in general, not all that bad a job. (Hopefully!). Thanks again for all the input!

Mark Taylor, Smith Mountain Lake, VA

 

[Tom Metzger]

I'm a very young man, and don't know the ways of the world,... but doesn't that diesel intake enough air for combustion to pretty much negate the effect of the blower?

FWIW, I just calculated that my M-25XP @ 57 cubic inches displacement uses 40 cubic feet of air, gas fumes, diesel fumes, propane,and carbon monoxide per minute at cruising rpm. I estimate that the engine compartment contains about 10 cubic feet of air, or a turnover rate of 4 times per minute.

For comparison, Defender lists nine bilge blowers rated from 105 to 250 CFM. I find it interesting that ITT Jabsco blowers say: Flangemount 4" Blower Jabsco blowers are primarily intended for intermittent duty cycles such as evacuating fuel vapors from bilge areas. If desired, they also may be used for other general air circulation applications with longer duty cycles...."

As LB would say: YMMV

 

[Glyn Judson]

Bilge blower selection.

All, Mine is a cast aluminum body Wilcox Crittenden fan with a motor rated for continuous use. Given our moderate climate here, I only use the fan for very hot days when motoring for hours at a time or during the opposite season when the warm air from the mushroom vent is a welcome comfort on the hands. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Emerald]

Couple thoughts on air consumption and cooling. Based on just the observation of temperature difference if I've been motoring without the fan on, and then turn it on, the air that initially comes out is much warmer than say the air exhausting 5 minutes later,and once the air that is exhausting has cooled down from the initial higher temps, it stays cooler. Turn the fan off, and when turned back on after let's say 10 minutes, it's warmer again and then cools down. So, while these little diesels do indeed gulp lots of cubic feet of air, I think the engine compartments can still do a good job of getting rather warm up top with air that does not circulate well in these areas. In the case of my layout, there is actually a little higher area over the engine than just aft, so I figure I create a hot air pocket up there, which is where I lead the suction side of the blower to. I also have found that the air coming out of my mushroom vent makes a great hand warmer, as Glyn mentions. One of the other benefits I've found with running the blower is the cabin temperature seems to stay more reasonable after shutting it all down on a hot summer's day.

 

[Vagabond39]

"The bilge fan was a MUST to vent explosive vapors. No matter if the vapors are gas, propane or diesel and I do realize that diesel fumes are not nealy as dangerous as the other two. I hadnt thought about the cooling aspect of air flow for the engine from the fan on long run, hot days - but that is a good point to consider.

Guess I'm just an old dog and a little OCD when it comes to venting the bilge"

Yep, it is when the engine is NOT RUNNING that fumes can build to become an explosive mixture.
And that can prevent becoming an old dog.

 

[Flight Risk]

Good thread!

Nice thread! Like everybody's input here about the issues at hand when it comes to venting. Guess I am a little old school in that I like lots of air flow.

I have the blower fan on Flight risk mounted in the lazarette where it is "easy" to access for repairs if needed. I have 3" EPDM vent hoses run to the engine box with the "fresh air" one down low and the "hot air" one up high in the engine box to help with cooling in summer. By habit, even with the diesel, I still run the blower a few minutes before starting. Like Loren, I am old school with LP and manually close the tank when not in use. However, I just do not trust there will never be a leak in lines that run to the range so I run the blower by habit.....

On a side note for engine "make up air" as we call it in the engine industry, many larger vessels have complex engine room venting plans. Some use positive pressure while others create negative pressure rooms. Either way it works is fine so long as there is sufficient air for combustion and heat rejection. Tom's point about calculating engine space volume, engine needs and the turn overs in CFM is spot on.

He also mentioned exhausting latent heat after engine shutdown. On another post I discussed some ATF heat discoloration issues in marine gears. Don't forget about that latent heat being an adder to this as the now "static" oil becomes a huge heat sink along with the coolant. We call this a "hot soak" condition. Hot soaking an engine can cause issues over time. Some of you that have experience with gasoline engines might remember vapor locks caused by this sometimes also.

Before everybody runs out and buys time delay cooling fans keep in mind this may not be an issue most of the time. For us sailors, the only time hot soaking might be common is at the fuel dock or pump out. Maybe you have a couple hour run on the iron genny on Sunday to get home. Stop off for fuel and shut down as required. A few minutes later you start up and head back to the slip, a classic hot soak. I keep the blower running while I take on fuel and if we shutdown for a short stop like the pump out or at the guest dock to take our dog, Lily, to the "drop out" area.....:0

Chris
E34 Flight Risk