40 years of monohull "evolution"

[Loren Beach]

It might be more logical to label this conversation "marketing driven changes" rather than "evolution." That would also avoid categorizing changes by usefulness rather than style.
I have found it most useful to compare sailboat design parameters to the "envelope" explanation of airplane design. Towards the ends of the scale you might get comparisons of a Steerman to an F-16. Either one will crash if forced to attempt to emulate the climb or stall or many other attributes of the other. Both are perfect within their own built in parameters.

Flight envelope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ever since some large boat builders in the late 70's and 80's figured out how to market vessels aimed at a limited "envelope" of light breeze and moderate seas, with interiors large and comfortable, the market itself evolved/devolved into the "mobile second home" market that we see today.

Full disclosure: if I were a boat builder today I might well choose to build only what sells readily to a rather low common denominator of shopper.

I recall a conversation with a long time broker several decades ago about dealing with new sailors and their fantasies about owning a sailboat. He observed that sometimes the guy would buy from the third broker after rejecting good advice from the first two who were trying to explain boats/designs/qualities to him. It would take the buyer time to admit to himself that his basic set of "facts" and assumptions were incorrect. And, he could not go back and confess that to the first two brokers.
(In larger markets these brokers might have coffee together once a week and compare their more interesting "interactions"...)

 

[Christian Williams]

Beauty is subjective.

I just don't see it that way.

 

[bgary]

...dealing with new sailors and their fantasies about owning a sailboat.

I once worked as a booth-monkey (answering questions, handing out brochures) at a boat show. Was struck by the patterns - you could infer whether someone knew what they were about by the questions they asked.

If they asked about stowage space and wet-lockers and access to mechanical spaces, they probably knew what they were about.

If they asked about sail area and displacement and draft, they probably had *some* sailing experience, probably in smaller boats, and were trying to figure out how what they knew related to all the mish-mashed claims in the brochures they'd read

If they asked "how many does it sleep?"... they'd probably never been out on a boat overnight, and likely never would.

<O_O>

 

[Nick J]

The big problem is making generalized statements based on a small sample. I'm guilty of this with what I infered on my initial post. Just because a Catalina looks like a bathtub from above doesn't' mean modern wide aft designs are inferior or slower than an Ericson. I really like some of the modern designs. What German Frers is doing with Halber Rassy is beautiful to my eye.

That doesn't mean a Cape George 36 is now ugly, a poor design, or inferior:



We probably need to be careful pointing fingers at modern boats anyway. The 70 and 80's could rival any decade for ugly boats


To me, it's all armchair speculation as I haven't had the chance to sail a modern design and I don't foresee being able to afford one anyway.

 

[ConchyDug]

Man what are y'all smoking in those wooden pipes, cracking me up. Y'all realize there are tons of other boat manufacturers besides Hunter and Catalina? I'm guessing most of y'all have never been on a keelboat that can plane and I'm not talking about surfing waves. Here is a link to a video with one of those "slow" Beneteaus. The audio is pretty terrible though.

Yeah Frers has always made pretty boats that were fast. Sailing Anarchy has an amazing "Ugly Boat" thread that is a great read.

 

[Loren Beach]

Yeah Frers has always made pretty boats that were fast.

NIAGARA 31 - sailboatdata

Until hull number 50, Niagara 31s were powered by a 13-hp Volvo diesel saildrive unit. Later models were powered by a Westerbeke 22-hp v-drive.

sailboatdata.com

When shopping for a move-up boat from our Niagara 26, in 1993, we really wanted an N-31. Low production run model & never many for sale on the used market, tho, and none for sale in our area at the time. It would have been nice to keep the well known Hinterhoeller build quality and have the performance. In the end we found an equally well designed boat from the EY factory. It all worked out fine.

And raw speed, as referenced in other posts, is indeed a good thing. A quick look for a PHRF rating for the N-31, sez it's about 156. In contrast our design rates around 115 here and 99 down in the Bay area where more are raced one design or level.

We are certainly spoiled by our boat's "easy speed" and glad we found it, so many years ago. We can hold onto 9 kts reaching, and have maintained 10+ off wind in the ocean with a small jib - surfing up to 12.5. While flattening out the hull design aft would theoretically produce more speed yet, I am glad not to have noisy discomfort in steep seas/waves. The BK Ericson's I have done deliveries on (33-3, and 38-200) have an even nicer motion at sea. Wonderful, actually.

As for other builders in other places, there are indeed many. I would love to find a deal on a Stephen Jones Starlight 35 or 39, from the UK. Or maybe a Scandinanian design.

 

[gareth harris]

I once worked as a booth-monkey (answering questions, handing out brochures) at a boat show. Was struck by the patterns - you could infer whether someone knew what they were about by the questions they asked.

If they asked about stowage space and wet-lockers and access to mechanical spaces, they probably knew what they were about.

If they asked about sail area and displacement and draft, they probably had *some* sailing experience, probably in smaller boats, and were trying to figure out how what they knew related to all the mish-mashed claims in the brochures they'd read

If they asked "how many does it sleep?"... they'd probably never been out on a boat overnight, and likely never would.

<O_O>

I once went to the San Diego boat show, and crawled (literally) over the sailboats asking such questions as: 'What size of wire connects the anchor windlass', 'When this hose wears out, how do I get a tool in here?', and 'If I hang up my wet gear here, where does the drain empty to?'. I was so preoccupied with what I was seeing that I failed completely to notice how angry the salesman was getting.

 

[bsangs]

Man what are y'all smoking in those wooden pipes, cracking me up. Y'all realize there are tons of other boat manufacturers besides Hunter and Catalina? I'm guessing most of y'all have never been on a keelboat that can plane and I'm not talking about surfing waves. Here is a link to a video with one of those "slow" Beneteaus. The audio is pretty terrible though.

Yeah Frers has always made pretty boats that were fast. Sailing Anarchy has an amazing "Ugly Boat" thread that is a great read.

A few years ago, before owning our boat, we chartered a day trip on a Beneteau. The captain asked if we just wanted to sit back and enjoy, or do most of the sailing. We chose the latter, of course. While it was too big, and had way too many bells and whistles for our simple tastes, she flew and we were duly impressed. Seemed to have more living space than most affordable NYC apartments too.

 

[mjsouleman]

This branch of the evolutionary tree has me wondering if there was crossbreeding with a powerboat.
View attachment 49739

Ugh!

 

[Alan Gomes]

Man what are y'all smoking in those wooden pipes, cracking me up. Y'all realize there are tons of other boat manufacturers besides Hunter and Catalina? I'm guessing most of y'all have never been on a keelboat that can plane and I'm not talking about surfing waves. Here is a link to a video with one of those "slow" Beneteaus. The audio is pretty terrible though.

Yeah Frers has always made pretty boats that were fast. Sailing Anarchy has an amazing "Ugly Boat" thread that is a great read.

Beneteau makes some nice boats. My friend's 36.7 went to weather like a witch!

 

[Christian Williams]

The Bauhaus influence of simplicity and utility often has the side effect of lowering cost and increasing efficiency.

It's part of the new aesthetic, although the houses built around me often look like the box a house used to come in.

They work, and so does a Beneteau with a canvas garage over the cockpit, in-mast furling with no battens, and the transom of a containership.

I prefer to think of this (entertaining!) thread as a psych test of Ericson owners, who are asked to fill out a form revealing who they are and what they like in the way of a sailboat. My guess is that people who prefer the old lines have simply seen a lot of boats, and pictures of boats, and have in their head a notion of what a boat is supposed to look like, and we just compare that image to what we see on the docks.

There is no right or wrong, of course, except that everybody who disagrees with me about what a boat should look like, is wrong.

What was it the the old scouts told Billy Bean in "Moneyball"? You gotta have doubts about a player with an ugly wife.

Classic cruising monohulls marry for beauty, and I like to think they choose us.



.

 

[bgary]

... as a psych test of Ericson owners, who are asked to fill out a form revealing who they are and what they like in the way of a sailboat.

Well, yes, there's definitely a bit of an implied IQ-test: if you really like the look of a scow-bowed POGO (or whatever), this may not be the place for you.

There may also be something more. Scientists have mapped a phenomenon they call the "reminiscence bump" - the tendency to favorably remember things you experienced between 10 and 30 years of age. They use it to explain (among other things) why people tend to gravitate towards the music they enjoyed in their teenage years (ref: "classic rock" for me)

https://neurosciencenews.com/music-youth-17765/

I do know that the boats I grew up racing in my teens and 20s - Ericsons, IOR 2-tonners, 12-meters, etc - continue to "just look right" to me. Unlike, e.g., the foiling UFOs they use in the America's Cup now.

I don't connect to those at all... but maybe *today's* teenagers will? I guess we'll see.

 

[David Vaughn]

…They use it to explain (among other things) why people tend to gravitate towards the music they enjoyed in their teenage years (ref: "classic rock" for me)…

https://neurosciencenews.com/music-youth-17765/

They just came up with that so they don’t have to admit that our music (same generation as you) was and is actually better.

 

[Bolo]

This has been one of the most interesting group of comments I've ever read on the EYO site! A physiological examination of sorts as to why we all bought a Ericson. For me it was a simple choice, almost an epiphany. In my pre-Ericson days, long ago, I was the owner of a Hunter 285 which my first mate and I purchased soon after taking sailing lessons. It was a good boat to learn on and I needed a lot of "learning" back in those days. Later we moved our home port from Havre de Grace, MD to Annapolis and the second year there I drove into the parking lot to get the Hunter ready for the next sailing season. Little did I know that when I parked the car it would be along side our next sailboat. Our marina would put boats up on the hard in the parking lot for the winter when they ran out of storage space in the yard. Getting out of my car I walked a short distance and then turned to look back and thought, "That's a beautiful boat!" Up to that point I didn't even know about Ericsons or their history.

The boat had a broker's sign on it and their office was in our marina. So I went over and inquired which prompted the broker to say, "Let's get a ladder so you can go topside!" I found out that he had just put the for sale sign on the Ericson ten minutes before and hadn't even listed it yet on line. After looking her over I said that I wanted to buy her and sell our Hunter. I even dropped $400 (using my credit card) to hold the boat, and this is the scary part, before telling my first mate what I did. In the end she too loved the look of the boat and the extra room. That was about nineteen years ago and to this day, when we sail to a transient marina or even at anchor, a passer by will stop and stare at the boat and say sometime like, "This is a beautiful sailboat, what is it?"

Where I found her. This image is from the surveyor's report.

 

[Bill Baum]

Fellas! I have loved my E33 for 25 years- sailed her to Grenada and back- but you're missing the big picture! It's not an '80's Ericson versus a 2020 Catalina. (Confession- we now also own a '99 Catalina 42 and love it also).

The big picture is that monohulls, any monohull brand, appear headed, if not gone already, to the history books. When we first cruised to The Bahamas and the Caribbean 12 years ago a catamaran was a rare curiosity. This year in George Town harbor in the Bahamas catamarans are clearly the majority of boats ! Read that again...catamarans are the majority! I recognize that someone in the northern US may not be seeing this shift, but it's real.

I suspect that any builder of monohulls is struggling to find buyers, and wondering about the future of their business.

This makes me very sad. For me, a sailboat that doesn't heel is not a real sailboat. How do you "feel" the boat if it can't speak to you by heeling?

I've made two 1000-mile passages as crew on catamarans and did not like it- they don't sail very well and have a jerky motion. Not graceful.

Folks are clearly prioritizing space and comfort over sailing ability. So far in our two years on the Catalina 42, it is comical how badly most of the catamarans sail- or don't! Coming down the New Jersey coast on a windy night I had to alert two catamarans that I would be overtaking them! Here in the Bahamas, they clearly can't sail upwind, don't sail dead downwind because their shrouds prevent easing out the tiny mainsail. Our Catalia 42 is almost always faster than the catamarans we encounter.

So please don't criticize the new monohulls so severely- they may already be the last ones that will ever be available.

 

[Christian Williams]

The Lagoon-style catamarans are charter boats, no? They really work for that, and not much else.

 

[Loren Beach]

Perhaps a "contrarian" view: From another (unaddressed...) standpoint, one could question whether multihulls will *ever* achieve much real market penetration. The reason is finding slips that will accommodate them. For instance we have a cat hull in our club now, but it's small at about 32 feet and most important can fit in one of our wider standard slips. The bigger ones, like the large charter cats, cannot fit inside the moorage on any permanent basis. Same for the other Clubs and commercial marinas in our area. The best they can offer is an end tie for one multihull per row, IF they have enough open water beyond that end tie.
Sidebar: I have done a delivery on a Cat-42, and we presently have one in the Club. Not all slips will fit the wide beam on that boat, I should note.

As for remodeling or creating new marina space, land cost $$$$ and permitting issues have combined to practically limit ANY further marina development in our whole geographic area. It's been over 70 years since a group of middle class boaters could buy some waterfront land and start driving piling and building docks, like our founding group did back in the 30's.

Situation is Far Worse yet anywhere in Puget Sound.

Nowadays the Corps has little $$ to create/maintain depth other than commercial navigable channels, also.
Our little YC owns and operates its own dredge or we would turn into a muddy beach in the late summers, for instance.
I will attach an overhead view, and the sandy-looking area on the right of the parking lot is our settling pond for winter dredging ops.
We maintain a minus-seven minimum depth at summer/fall low water.

 

[Bill Baum]

Christian- No, the 150 catamarans in George Town harbor are privately owned boats. I don't believe there are any charter fleets of note in the Bahamas. Many of them may have been charter boats in the past- ie Caribbean charter fleets- but these are private boats.

 

[Christian Williams]

So--perhaps they're on moorings? As with Loren, very few in my marina because they need end-dock, which is limited and expensive. They may be ugly and slow, but a 65' Lagoon can accommodate 10 guests and a crew of three in hotel comfort. No monohull under 100' can compare, and we have looked. Greece, where we chartered recently, seems to have built out long docks to handle the proliferation, which is good for tourism. Msybe George Town the same?

In the crowded Greek anchorages, with lousy holding, boy do the catamarans drag. All that windage.

Why is this not thread drift? Because, um, er, ah, it extends the evolution in design to subsequent interactive oblique consequences and refractory counterarguments inversely proportional to the limitation of initially presumtive exclusionary intention.

 

[Bolo]

“Why is this not thread drift? Because, um, er, ah, it extends the evolution in design to subsequent interactive oblique consequences and refractory counterarguments inversely proportional to the limitation of initially presumtive exclusionary intention.”

…and it’s all interesting reading.