Lithium Ion battery

I just followed an article in Yachting Monthly to this announcement on the maker's site:
http://www.mastervolt.com/marine/products/li-ion/mli-12-320/

Battery Weight appears to be 121. pounds, translated from Euro Gravity Units. :nerd:

I'm afraid to research the price of one!

The advertised 320 MH rating is impressive.
I wonder if this will change (challenge?) the charging requirements of alternator controllers and shore power chargers... yet again...


LB

Let's see...I just paid over $7 for two AA Lithium Ion batteries for my point and shoot camera...

The new generation of Li batts are VERY, VERY expensive. However if you you buy into the hype, I don't yet, they can be discharged to zero and recharged so you can get away with a bank half the size by not needing to cycle to only 50% depth.

The one GLARING issue I have is that if a battery CAN be cycled to 0% SOC then why does it still have a comparable warranty to a wet cell battery costing 20-30X less money??

These batteries contain their own BMS and CAN be discharged to ZERO so why such a ridiculously short warranty for something that we really have no ability to over charge, undercharge or cycle to deeply???

With Li batts the most important part of them is the Battery Management System "BMS" which balances the Li cells. Many of them have already had "issues" and IMHO after attending a few Li battery seminars is that the "consensus" on how best to manage them, in the marine environment, is not yet dialed in enough. Of course maybe it is but I am just giving it time to prove it is finally dialed in.

Many of us, including myself, bought into the AGM marketing which has proven to be quite a farce when applied to the marine market. Sure, in a lab the numbers may work but on a boat they don't and have not as a general observation.

As such I am skeptical to plunk 10k down on a house bank when many, if not most, plunked down 3-4 X wet cell prices for AGM and got less cycles and less life out of them. Just tested another set of dead three year old AGM's today. Fine in the fall, dead this spring.

Of all the brands I think Mastervolt and Genasun have it pretty well dialed but get ready to pony up if you want to jump in early..!

A simple thing

Having been in a few places where one couldn't just pull in and get my needed parts, I would be hesitant to put such an important item that has circuit boards (see photos on web site) in a boat. Batteries are a necessary item that needs to function. (Especially if you can't hand start the engine.) My experience is that batteries don't usually live in a perfect lab environment on a boat.

So, why exactly do we, as sailors, need something that necessitates more money to go boating. Personally, I believe that best value per reasonable dollar is better, and generally, less is more.

LI batteries work well in a small devices that we really don't need but I don't see them improving my sailing experience.

Dal
E-39 "Stillwater"

You're Right

stillwater said:

Having been in a few places where one couldn't just pull in and get my needed parts, I would be hesitant to put such an important item that has circuit boards (see photos on web site) in a boat. Batteries are a necessary item that needs to function. (Especially if you can't hand start the engine.) My experience is that batteries don't usually live in a perfect lab environment on a boat.

So, why exactly do we, as sailors, need something that necessitates more money to go boating. Personally, I believe that best value per reasonable dollar is better, and generally, less is more.

LI batteries work well in a small devices that we really don't need but I don't see them improving my sailing experience.

Dal
E-39 "Stillwater"

Click to expand...

Hi Dal, I noticed the same potential problem when looking at the product images. Yikes.

Putting on my Pontification Hat for a minute...
I see this as much more of a concern than the slow evolution of other mechanical technology like roller furling, that went from a novelty in the 70's to mostly-taken-for-granted-for-everyday-use nowadays.

Electronics, like all things electrical, is much more subject to catastrophic failure in a sea water environment.
OTOH, I also believe that one should "never say never"... after all, I watched the early tiller pilots with their dodgy water-proofing progress to the point where they last a lot lot longer... :nerd:

Navigation electronics, filled with pc boards that would fail at the slightest whiff of salt, now are better-sealed and work for years or until you replace them with little boxes with newer bells n whistles....

Still, the marine environment is about the harshest there is, and it's still difficult to keep "simple" lead acid batteries and their associated wiring systems going for periods of time in extended usage off shore.

Regards,
Loren (who, in spite of all the electrical complication, really really likes his refrigeration!)

My take on new technology is that it should give a substantial benefit over the old technology. I can't really say I see how the Li batteries are substantially better than a wet lead acid setup in most boating applications. Cost is too great, benefits too small. RT

Batteries

Battferies, batteries & to many charging options. The lithium batteries have come a long way in the past few years and will continue making gains as to the two areas of improvement , first they have over doubled there discharge capacity (cranking) and second ~ they chraging rates have also nearly doubled. I have a bit of experience through a friend in large scale RC modeling.
Just to throw something else in the mix has anyone seen the newer "metal hydride" type battery now available from Bruce Shwab? They can be charged and discharged at the rated capacity and have a very high cycle ratio I don't remember. A group 27 "size" battery has I think it was 350 amp hour charge rate,capacity and discharge rate. Oh yes it ways as I remember 35 pounds total and the serious racer are buying them to lighten up a bit. They were only $1700 bucks and require nothing special to charge only the charge rate up to capacity.

Dave Neptune
E-35 MkII #136 Volador

A Rigger... selling Electrons!

http://www.bruceschwab.com/

Lots of high-end charging products on his web site.

Time sure flies... I remember watching "Ocean Planet" being built at a yard in PDX, quite a few years ago.

Thanks for that link Loren. I thought the Bruce Schwab name sounded familiar. I had an interesting conversation with him at Strictly Sail last month. What drew me to his booth was the Watt & Sea hydro-generator, check it out on his web site.

Those of us that have switched to electric propulsion are watching the Li battery progress. If cost was not a consideration the current generation Li battery would be the way to go (some people are using them on their sailboat EP conversions already). My plan when I repowered with EP three years ago was to install AGM's, hope for 5 years of service from them and replace with a higher density, lighter batteries. The batteries are available now - here's to hoping for a 50% price drop .

By the way the Watt & Sea hydro-generator cost about $8000!