New Keel in my E-25..yaye..;(

I have spent a very large portion of my day removing the old pieces that were lodged in my keel box from the former keel which had broken off. Removed the pin, spent 3 hours cleaning out the oyster shells that had attached themselves. Didn't take too long to get the new keel connected and the pin pushed back in place and screwed in nice and tight. Raised and lowered new keel on land. Worked like a drea,...finally!
Boat is launched with keel in up position and off I go. Let tension off the centerboard line and...nothing. The keel didn't drop. How could it be stuck? I decided to drop anchor and screw around with a bit more. I ended up pushing a rod down the tube inside the cabin in an effort to puch the keel into the down position. It worked. I managed to get the keel down but....as I removed the stick the keel simply snapped back up into the raised position. It apparently floats. Brought it back to the dock, tied off the lines and left..mad.
Called Idasailor who just made the keel, and they will 'get back to me as soon as they can'. He did say the needed to add more weight. I said ya probably do, but I am in Jacksonville and you are in Idaho. I'm gonna have to pay the haulout fee again to remove the keel, plus shipping to get it back to them, plus haul out to put snother one in. I think they should pay for these fee!
I'd spend more time here describing it, but...so pissed I just need to go to sleep.

centerboard

Man sorry to here about the board. You would figure the would have a standard for the weight after the years they been making them and that's BS if they don't pick up the tab. Well let us know about the call back and hope it goes well.

Art

I remember that centerboard weight was a subject of discussion back in the fall. Those who had dealt with idasailor in Idaho and those who had constructed lighter-weight replacement boards themselves spoke of how the lighter weight of these boards was not a problem. This makes me think that idasailor constructed this particular board for Bobby lighter than any of the others in the past. If, however, the board is identical to those he has constructed in the past, then it might simply be a mechanical/physical issue on this boat and not a weight issue. Could there be some explanation based on physics for the behavior of this board? Opinions?

Roscoe

This board was the first of it's kind from Ida-Sailor as the HDPE plastic that they had been using is no longer economically available. They made a fiberglass version for Bobby.
It would appear to be a real bone-head mistake for them to forget to put any lead in it. I too think they should pay up on all costs, even if they are struggling. - it's the right thing to do. - chris

Wow, that's really a bummer. Threaten to sue?

Some CB thoughts

Small vendors are not going to have an R&D budget and deep enough pockets to support much "warranty." Having said that, I would imagine that the builder will want to help with a solution as much as he is able.
IF the board is pivoting freely in the slot, and there are NO friction points in the hoisting tackle... then it would indeed appear that Archimedes was not consulted.

It's not like I know anything about the keel on an E-25, but from reading about it I imagine it to be there to provide lateral plane and not extra righting moment... i.e. it has enough lead in it to make it sink and enough extra to make it sink even when the boat is moving forward at about 5 knots and the water flow is trying push it back up.

Just how much lead that is, I do not know. I'll bet that Bruce King knows, tho. :nerd:

I have some practical knowledge of such a keel also from my previous life when I owned a series of Ray Richards-designed Ranger 20 sloops. These came with a stub keel and a pivoting frp center board that extended the draft from 19" to about 36" (IIRC) with the board down. That board had about 35# of lead in the bottom to make it sink, and it always did so. It was designed to be raised with one hand pulling directly on a wire pennant secured to a 3" ss ring. You would just grasp the ring which resting in a recess at the front of the cockpit sole and pull it up and drop it over a ss hook. Simple system and it always worked.

Anyhooooo.... I would take that "floaty" CB and drill out a plug on one side at the bottom and insert about 30# or so of lead, and then glass it up again.
First, tho, tie a line to the board and drop it into the water and see if it sinks -- slowly or abruptly... If it now passes the "sink test", you need to re-inspect the rest of the slot and pin system for problems.
Best of luck,
Loren

still so pissed, but they dont get in office till Monday

As far as the "float" test goes, I would have to haul out the damn boat again and remove it and I need to save a few bux. Stinkin keel cost me 984 with shipping...I shouldn't have to drill a damn thing on it...lol...anyway..off to work to make some money to work on a keel...ciao

I'm still inclined to think that there is some physical explanation for this problem. It would have to be pretty damn light to float, especially since the pivot pin is at the far end of the board. Picture a seesaw with the fulcrum offset by 90%.

If the problem continues, if the Idaho man stonewalls, and if legal action is more trouble than it's worth, I'd probably get a strip of lead (about two feet long by about two inches wide) and get a diver to screw it onto the leading edge of the board. If I remember correctly from some of the pictures I have seen, Mr. Idaho makes these boards with a square leading edge. This extra weight might solve the problem and save a lot of money. Just my thoughts.

Roscoe

P.S. In terms of the weight of the board as produced by Ericson: 150 lbs (much of it near the bottom end of the board). I do, though, remember in these discussions that some people who rebuilt boards said they have met with success with boards somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 lbs. Isn't that correct? If that's the case, then Bobby shouldn't be too off the mark with a little lead added on the edge as a sinker.

Roscoe,
The Ida-Sailor board has a rounded leading edge with a proper dynamic shape, which should provide as much or more lift than the original board. I think they may have mentioned a modernization of the profile. I imagine that Bobby's new board is constructed as a fiberglass over foam unit (surfboard). Without a steel frame like the original or a lead slug like their previous model, it probably floats like a surfboard. Maybe the lead is still on the work table? Who knows!
I have their plastic model mounted to a frame with a dividing sheet, and ready to copy to a two sided clam mold. From this I plan to make a cement based composite board more like the weight and strength of the original. If all works out as planned I may have something better to offer. At least mine and another E25 buddy in our club will have something to use as these boards do need re-building or replacing about now. I may have something to offer to Ida-Sailor if all works out. - chris

the total shipping weight of the keel was 33 pounds

I assumed after talking to them before they made the keel that they had researched it and knew how to make a much lighter keel that would still "get the job done". I have not heard back from them yet and they seem to be really good, honest, straight forward type fellas so I am not in any way trying to hose their reputation as solid people. Mistakes happen. This just happens to be a very frustrating mistake as this keel situation has been real trouble ever since I acquired the boat. It all went too smoothly I guess as far as installation went. I think I did screw up by digging out the fiberglass that is right in front of the pivot pin. I thought it was just some leftover swelled to the box part of the old keel. I planned on pulling it for a bottom job soon and reglassing that little area. That absolutely shouldn't affect the keel going up or down though...just something to keep the water flow continuous as it passes by the keel box I assume. If I posted the pics of the whole process...everyone would say " damn you need a bottom job!" Goes without saying at this point. I'll wait for their call on Monday and go from there. My Ericson 25 circa 1975 hull #208 will not be abandoned! I will be triumphant over this keel situation and live on to tackle the rest of the many things that are required to get this boat up to enviably kick ass status!

solution at hand

The good folks at Idasailor are sending me a shipping label so that I can send it back to them for fixing. They are wanting to only pay for the first haul out to get the keel off, but I think I can get them to pay for the haul out to put the keel on too with a little more cajolling. I'm doing all the damn work and it's their mistake so, in my opinion, I shouldn't be paying a penny more than I already have. Anyway, this issue should be fixed very soon. Just thought I'd drop an update..

Kringe said:

The good folks at Idasailor are sending me a shipping label so that I can send it back to them for fixing. They are wanting to only pay for the first haul out to get the keel off, but I think I can get them to pay for the haul out to put the keel on too with a little more cajolling. I'm doing all the damn work and it's their mistake so, in my opinion, I shouldn't be paying a penny more than I already have. Anyway, this issue should be fixed very soon. Just thought I'd drop an update..

Click to expand...

Man , what a story. :headb:

Why don't they just ship you a "new & improved" board? You can then change them out in one 1 hour lift ? You can then ship them back the old one on their dime. I wouldn't settle for less.

Hoping for a Cure

As a loyal customer, Joel, at Idasailor has always treated me with the utmost in customer courtesy and helpfulness. I am disheartened to read some of the stuff being written here as I have had a totally opposite experience with the services and products that Idasailor has provided for my Ericson 25. And, on my boat, his products work beautifully! (I have a centerboard [that doesn't float], a kick-up rudder, a custom tiller, 2 self-tailing winches, lazyjacks, and some electrical rewiring done at the Idasailor facility over the past 3 years.)

I hope this gets resolved amicably - and if it does, I also hope the resolution is placed on this discussion board as well!

Steve Swann
E25 c/b Seahorse

Steve,
I got good product , and service too, and my comments were not to be disparaging towards the vendor. I would do business with them again. If the board floats then it really is a major mistake, and I'm sure it will get rectified to Bobby's satisfaction. - chris

Pulling it Monday

The whole time I hadn't been able to reach Joel as he had been out of town working on another project. I was finally able to speak directly with him on Thursday and he got things rolling very quickly. I had been waiting for the shipping label for a week and decided to try to reach him again. This time I got lucky. They are shipping it back on their dime and also paying for both haul outs. They are certainly good people and stand behind their work. I have no doubt that they will fix the problem correctly. Joel assured me that they should have it shipped back out within 24-48 hours of receiving it. I feel better. Not looking forward to removing it again or replacing it again in this stifling Florida heat, but I am definitely looking forward to having a working keel setup. Next stop: Repairing the rudder and a bottom job...gotta save save save..

Bobby,

Glad to know that Idasailor is going to cover these expenses for you. Sounds like Joel is the good guy that Chris and Steve have said he is. Just wondering . . . did Joel say that it was simply a matter of lead not being added to the end of the board? Was that his over-the-phone analysis of the situation?

Thanks,
Roscoe

P.S. Didn't you say you had some pictures (from the haulout) of the broken pieces of the old board that were stuck in the centerboard trunk? If you get a chance, it would be nice to see these, since it will reveal the breaking point of the old board.

New Rudder Strongly Recommended

Bobby,

I can't say enough good things about an Idasailor-built kick-up rudder. It is so superior to the original that you won't believe the difference! You will no longer be class legal, but I doubt if you are racing anyway. Your boat will love you.

The kickup rudder is fantastic for beaching your boat - either stem-to or stern-to the beach, it works better than the original. And, it is a lot safer in the event of a grounding (the rudder swings instead of breaks off the transom). It is a much more efficient design, doesn't crack and doesn't fill with water. I also remove this new rudder while towing.

I would sure encourage you to re-check your piggy bank and save up for one of these!

Steve

PS No, I dont' get a commission!