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Asymmetrical Spinnaker Questions

S

sailorjdh

Member I
I am looking for advice/opinions regarding adding an asymmetrical spinnaker to my 1989 E38-200.
The A-sail is going to function for both limited ( unfortunately) cruising and local racing.
I have some questions regarding the possible setup and seek assistance with any and all.
1)Has anyone been successful with attaching a sprit to the E 38 ?
2)Tacker vs a block attached on the anchor fixture for the tack line.
3) Spinnaker sheets guys on the outer track to the winch vs thru a block somehow attached to the stern cleats and then forward to the winch ?
4) If a tacker is used is it possible to let the tack line out to position the tack of the sail forward or leeward ?
5) Has anyone used a whiskerpole with a slot attachment to a stay? ( i have a 105 head sail) ?
Thanks,
Jeff Hart
Sweet Surrender
 
CTOlsen

CTOlsen

Member III
I've been kicking around the same idea for the same reasons. Met with my sailmaker last week to discuss (Doyle). Both Forespar & Selden make deck mouunted sprit kits. the rest is all sails. I'll stay in touch.:egrin:
 
M

msc1212

Member II
I've been looking at the Selden which seems to work quite well and isn't outrageously expensive. The trouble is the rating hit you'll take for having the sprit in your racing. It might make the sprint not worth it. You should look into the penalty for the sprit and add that into the decision mix.
 
S

Seth

Sustaining Partner
A sail

If you are not racing, I would not bother with a sprit. You pay on the rating upwind and down, and will only get a marginal performance boost when you have the A sail up.

I am not crazy about tackers, and prefer to use an adjustable tack line led through a block on the anchor roller, then led aft to the cockpit. Tight reaching you will keep the tack low, and as you go to deeper angles you can ease off the tack line and allow the luff to rotate out to windward some, which will increase projected area and performance.

For the sheets, the best thing is to use a loop of low stretch line though the middle of the aft stern cleat, and you can then easily attach a block to this loop when you will be using the A sail. When not using it the loop is very inconspicuous and causes no trouble. Leading the sheets aft will get the best sheeting angle for close reaching, and for deeper angles where you might want to move the lead slightly ahead, you can just rig a tweaker/twing/downhaul through a block on the outboard track. This line has a block on the end of it through which the spin sheet is led before continuing aft to the stern cleat blocks. It is passed through the block on the outboard track and then to a free winch. When you need to adjust the lead forward, just grind down this line. It will also keep the spin sheets under the boom when running with the mainsail eased, and thus prevent the spin sheet from chafing on the boom.

IMHO....:nerd:
Cheers,
S
 
S

sailorjdh

Member I
bow sprit

Thanks for your interest. If a bow sprit is added would you have it deck mounted and if so what to do with the acess to the anchor locker and in my case I also have a windlass a little to port of the center line?
Jeff hart
 
Mark F

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
The retractable sprits are usually off to one side in the stowed position. You should be able to set it up so the stowed sprit is out of the way. I helped a friend install a Seldon kit on his Catalina 30, it seems like a good product. I had a collar built for my E27 and cut down a spinnaker pole for the sprit. Having the asymmetrical out away from the headstay is an advantage for performance and a big help for handling.
 
T

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
I'm particularly fond of my assym setup and it is very much inline with Seths comments. I race my 38 about 3 times a year, sail the boat casually at least once a week, and fly the assym almost every time I go out often singlehanded. My thoughts.

1. The sprit set up would be nice but only if you were NOT going to race. Rating hit is not worth it. Also the sprits from either selden or forspar would be difficult to use on the Ericson due to the stem fitting/anchor roller/ andchor pan etc. Not worth the money or hassle IMHO.

2. The tack line: I have a harken 57mm ESP on a shackle to the anchor roller. Tack line comes through here and then aft a single block. There a control line leads from the first stanchion base aft through a single with a becket to provide 3:1 purchase. This control line is led aft to the cockpit along the starboard side via stanchion base blocks.(furler linelead blocks would be better). Back at the cocpit is a single ratchet block with a cam cleat. This makes the tack line pretty easy to adjust from the cocpit. As Seth says way eased for sailind deep, down tight for reaching.

3. Tackers Blow IMHO. They put loads on your furler extrusions that they were never intended to see. They dont really allow the luff to float to weather when sailing deep. If you have a good cut A-sail you dont need this extra piece of junk, but if you really want one I will give you the one that came with my boat. More on the sail cut later.

4. Sheets: I use yale vizzion 3/8". I have the tow spliced together to form a bridle with a 3' tail that attaches to the clew. This helps with gybes by allowing the sheet to ride over the furled genoa smoother. 3/8" is a little small for the self tailers on my primary wiches but 7/16 jsut seemed way to heavy and I did not want to carry two sets of sheets. I just run mine to a block out on the toe rail as far aft as I can get a good lead to the primaries with. Seth's suggestion would probably be a lot better. Make a strop out of 3/8's dyneema, attach to stern cleat, set at height to get clean lead to primaries.

5. Socks: I use a Chutescoop snuffer. Its okay but I think the ATN product would be better. Chutescoop is 1/2 the price at about $250 where the ATM product is closer to $500. I dont use mine for racing as I have 9-10 others on the boat but when cruising it is a must. The ATN sock has a rigid funnel that does a better job of snuffing the first few feet of the kite. Thats the toughest bit.

6. Cut and Shape: This is absolutely critical IMHO. Sailmakers have learned a tremendous volume of knowledge on the ideal shapes for an A sail over the past 10 years. The "Cruising" Kites I see on most boats are horrible sails. They are always in great condition because no one ever flies them.They are mostly modified symmetricals that are hard to fly and perform poorly. Cut is important and you will need to decide what you want out of the sail. My objective was to be able to sail deep and not need a pole or crew. Therefore my sail is optimized for an AWA of 120 or below. I can carry it up pretty high in light air but it starts to look like crap and I am better off with a jib then. I can sail as deep as a symmetrical in flat water and nearly so in chop. The luff floats out to weather from behind the main and we can go plenty deep. You will not get this from a reacher which will be flatter cut. My advice is to get a new sail, use a reputable sailmaker, you wont be dissapointed. I chose Quantum and Tad Hutchins in Annapolis. He probably still has the files on y boat.

The attached is a reaching shot.
 

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CTOlsen

CTOlsen

Member III
Nice post Ted.
I have been debating pole/no pole for a while, and am committed to staying in "B" fleet in the lower Chesapeake ( I have been sailing "A" fleet for the last 10 years in an O-30).
I like your thoughts on tacking to the stem. My sailmaker wants to stick a 2' pole out there (which I can make with Carbon tubing & pole ends). Since my wife & I cruise the boat, we will likely go with teh stem fitting. Doyle Hampton (Jim Miller) will make me a (another) great sail.
Nice Pix!
CTO
 
S

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Thanks Ted

....For helping with my senior moment-yes-I meant Dyneema or equivalent strops in the stern cleats! Long day on the road, and brain and fingers had a bad connection.

I'm with you on all your good points, especially:
Tackers Blow for the added reasons you brought up-especially the side load problem and the fact that they do not float up like they should!

Sheets-are set up perfectly

ATN is the best sock on the market, but others will do the job.

Regarding your sail design comments....ABSOLUTELY 100% true! Tad is a great dude, too.

That pic of your kite kind of highlights my point about sheeting-It is a full size (or nearly so) sail, and I am certain your lead is too far forward for closer angles. A smaller LP A-sail might be OK at the aft-most point on the outboard track, but for your sail I am pretty sure your leech is shut down when sailing at close angles. Moving the lead aft will flatten the foot (and lower section of the sail), open the leech, and be faster for sure than with the lead where you have it. I am sure this is causing more heel than you want as well (and backwinding the main), and bet you will find another couple of knots of upper wind range before the boat is overpowered when you have the breeze fwd of the beam!

Rig those strops, move the lead aft and use the downhaul rig when sailing deep!

Cheers and thanks!

S:)
 
T

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
We are doing the Harbor cup to Baltimore in a few weeks. Will try and get the strops set up by then. Although we are considering registering non spin as it usually blows dogs off chains that weekend... I find the B fleet boys up near annapolis are a really tough crowd. They are all very good sailors and the s-2's and pearson flyers are all seriously optimized for racing. 3DL sails and gutted interiors. We have a hard time holding our own unless it blows like last year (45kts whoa!)
 
F

FullTilt E28

Member III
ted_reshetiloff said:
I'm particularly fond of my assym setup and it is very much inline with Seths comments. I race my 38 about 3 times a year, sail the boat casually at least once a week, and fly the assym almost every time I go out often singlehanded. My thoughts.

1. The sprit set up would be nice but only if you were NOT going to race. Rating hit is not worth it. Also the sprits from either selden or forspar would be difficult to use on the Ericson due to the stem fitting/anchor roller/ andchor pan etc. Not worth the money or hassle IMHO.

2. The tack line: I have a harken 57mm ESP on a shackle to the anchor roller. Tack line comes through here and then aft a single block. There a control line leads from the first stanchion base aft through a single with a becket to provide 3:1 purchase. This control line is led aft to the cockpit along the starboard side via stanchion base blocks.(furler linelead blocks would be better). Back at the cocpit is a single ratchet block with a cam cleat. This makes the tack line pretty easy to adjust from the cocpit. As Seth says way eased for sailind deep, down tight for reaching.

3. Tackers Blow IMHO. They put loads on your furler extrusions that they were never intended to see. They dont really allow the luff to float to weather when sailing deep. If you have a good cut A-sail you dont need this extra piece of junk, but if you really want one I will give you the one that came with my boat. More on the sail cut later.

4. Sheets: I use yale vizzion 3/8". I have the tow spliced together to form a bridle with a 3' tail that attaches to the clew. This helps with gybes by allowing the sheet to ride over the furled genoa smoother. 3/8" is a little small for the self tailers on my primary wiches but 7/16 jsut seemed way to heavy and I did not want to carry two sets of sheets. I just run mine to a block out on the toe rail as far aft as I can get a good lead to the primaries with. Seth's suggestion would probably be a lot better. Make a strop out of 3/8's dyneema, attach to stern cleat, set at height to get clean lead to primaries.

5. Socks: I use a Chutescoop snuffer. Its okay but I think the ATN product would be better. Chutescoop is 1/2 the price at about $250 where the ATM product is closer to $500. I dont use mine for racing as I have 9-10 others on the boat but when cruising it is a must. The ATN sock has a rigid funnel that does a better job of snuffing the first few feet of the kite. Thats the toughest bit.

6. Cut and Shape: This is absolutely critical IMHO. Sailmakers have learned a tremendous volume of knowledge on the ideal shapes for an A sail over the past 10 years. The "Cruising" Kites I see on most boats are horrible sails. They are always in great condition because no one ever flies them.They are mostly modified symmetricals that are hard to fly and perform poorly. Cut is important and you will need to decide what you want out of the sail. My objective was to be able to sail deep and not need a pole or crew. Therefore my sail is optimized for an AWA of 120 or below. I can carry it up pretty high in light air but it starts to look like crap and I am better off with a jib then. I can sail as deep as a symmetrical in flat water and nearly so in chop. The luff floats out to weather from behind the main and we can go plenty deep. You will not get this from a reacher which will be flatter cut. My advice is to get a new sail, use a reputable sailmaker, you wont be dissapointed. I chose Quantum and Tad Hutchins in Annapolis. He probably still has the files on y boat.

The attached is a reaching shot.
Click to expand...

Ted we've been doing the same on our E28 similar set up only I simply run the tack to a new clutch at the cabin top. We also own a U20 which we race a bunch so flying the Asym on the e28 is generally a cake walk especially with the sock :) I did run the tack through the anchor roller but didn't like the loading as you pointed out. So I put a large clam shackle on the stem fitting were the forestay mounts. Seems to work well and we simply float the tack up above the bow pulpit works well. I've found I can sail wing and wing in the light air which is quite cool and really throws your competition for a loop when you drive a good 10+ degrees down on them by simply pulling the main across ha ha wave chop makes it hard to hold the wing and wing but if you can swing it the boat does well.

The other trick is with the cruising sock being so easy - a long down wind run say many miles - I actually would consider dropping the main unsocking the kite and running ddw probably much lower than symetric rigs only snag is you don't have the main to blanket the kite if you get into trouble and need to take it down so some skill and planning is needed to take that approach.

Sprits? I wouldn't even bother with one unless you plan on doing nothing but racing - the new asymmetric cuts are quite good for DDW with broad shoulders but it does take some time to learn how to drive em - they are not symetric kites for sure. On the U20 our new DDW kites enable us to drive down as low as most of the usual suspects in the PHRF races flying the old Symetric kites which is nice as just 8 or so years ago our asym's simply wouldn't let us do that so the Symetric guys would walk away from us in the light stuff maxing out VMG etc. Not so now.

Even our cruising asym on the E28 can drive quite low but again we have lots of practice with the U20 so it does take some time to get there most new drivers to Asymmetrics drive way - way too high of angles takes lots of time to get the ddw mind set going with the asymmetric flying.
 
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