amadon light
Member II
31 indepence stiff or not and please define the term stiff please
Stiff or not
- Thread starter amadon light
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Not "tender"
A "tender" boat is one which is is considered to become overpowered at relatively low wind speeds while carrying full sized sails-you know you are overpowered when heel passes about 20 degrees and the rudder loses some effectiveness.
A "stiff"" boat is able to carry full sail into higher wind ranges before becoming overpowered.
Generally a tender boat has a high sail area to displacement ration, meaning it is considered "powerful" (has a lot of sail area for the overall displacement).
It will perform better in light air than stiff boats, which are not as powerful, and which will need more breeze to make full use of the sail plan.
Tender boats will need to reduce sail eariler than stiff boats to stay properly powered up/trimmed, but of course give better performance in the low wind speeds.
The I/31 would fall in the average category. It is more tender than the traditional cruisers it is designed to look like, and has better performance than those boats as a result, but is by virtue of its' overall design approach relatively stiffer than the 28, 30, 32, 34, 35,38 series..
Make sense?
S
Make sense?
A "tender" boat is one which is is considered to become overpowered at relatively low wind speeds while carrying full sized sails-you know you are overpowered when heel passes about 20 degrees and the rudder loses some effectiveness.
A "stiff"" boat is able to carry full sail into higher wind ranges before becoming overpowered.
Generally a tender boat has a high sail area to displacement ration, meaning it is considered "powerful" (has a lot of sail area for the overall displacement).
It will perform better in light air than stiff boats, which are not as powerful, and which will need more breeze to make full use of the sail plan.
Tender boats will need to reduce sail eariler than stiff boats to stay properly powered up/trimmed, but of course give better performance in the low wind speeds.
The I/31 would fall in the average category. It is more tender than the traditional cruisers it is designed to look like, and has better performance than those boats as a result, but is by virtue of its' overall design approach relatively stiffer than the 28, 30, 32, 34, 35,38 series..
Make sense?
S
Make sense?
amadon light
Member II
Stiff
so in my area average wind is 5-10 with 1-2 ft seas normally i31 seems to be just about the right set up with the sail area it came with from the designers?
so in my area average wind is 5-10 with 1-2 ft seas normally i31 seems to be just about the right set up with the sail area it came with from the designers?
Basically
Except the designers do not specify a specfic "normal" sail area. An owner can buy any sized sail he/she wants to. The boat was designed either as a cutter with a staysail (of fixed size) and a high clewed headsail, sometimes called a "yankee". This headsail can be any size you want-most folks go with 110-120%, plus the staysail.
if you have the sloop rig, you just have the main and genoa, and it is up to you what sized genoa you use. For all purpose cruising, most folks go with something in the 120-135% range. This set up is a bit underpowered in less than 10, probabaly optimal from 12-16 or so on your boat (your boat is not the type to out a bunch of folks on the rail!) but is OK between maybe 8-18.
This sized sail is OK for the average conditions, but you will be a little underpowered in the light stuff (where you would be better off with a 150), and a bit pressed at the upper end (but you can reef to stretch things).
For cruisers who do not want to have several headsails it is good compromise, and is a common choice.
If you sail a lot in winds above 18 or so, you would want the primary headsail to be more like 100-110%.
I guess the question is what rig and sized headsail(s) do you have? If you did not order it and it came with the boat, just keep in mind it is not a "standard" size, but simply what the PO or dealer wanted to put on the boat.
I might be able to offer more suggestions with that info.
Hope this helps.
S
Except the designers do not specify a specfic "normal" sail area. An owner can buy any sized sail he/she wants to. The boat was designed either as a cutter with a staysail (of fixed size) and a high clewed headsail, sometimes called a "yankee". This headsail can be any size you want-most folks go with 110-120%, plus the staysail.
if you have the sloop rig, you just have the main and genoa, and it is up to you what sized genoa you use. For all purpose cruising, most folks go with something in the 120-135% range. This set up is a bit underpowered in less than 10, probabaly optimal from 12-16 or so on your boat (your boat is not the type to out a bunch of folks on the rail!) but is OK between maybe 8-18.
This sized sail is OK for the average conditions, but you will be a little underpowered in the light stuff (where you would be better off with a 150), and a bit pressed at the upper end (but you can reef to stretch things).
For cruisers who do not want to have several headsails it is good compromise, and is a common choice.
If you sail a lot in winds above 18 or so, you would want the primary headsail to be more like 100-110%.
I guess the question is what rig and sized headsail(s) do you have? If you did not order it and it came with the boat, just keep in mind it is not a "standard" size, but simply what the PO or dealer wanted to put on the boat.
I might be able to offer more suggestions with that info.
Hope this helps.
S
I feel like the original sail plan is oriented more mid to high teens. She really comes to life as the wind pipes up. I sail on the Chesapeake Bay where we get plenty of light air, and I have an "oversized" yankee, and it makes a noticeable difference in light air. When it gets to the 5 side of the world, I'm very thankful the prior owner had an asymmetrical spinnaker built for her, as she really can benefit from the extra sail - it's 817 square feet, the original sail plan is 497. So, I'd say the original sail plan is oriented to heavier air than 5-10. I think of these as nice sailing and stout little boats that are very capable. If you have good sails and trim her right, she'll surprise you, and the boats you catch or hang with that think they should run away. Give her 15-20 on a nice reach, and I've given a enough J's a run for their money to say it's not a fluke. Of course, as soon as we tack and they go up hill, it's a different story 
You will also find that she is nice and predictable as she heels. She will not suddenly roll over on you, but will just heel a few more degrees as it gusts up. This is part of her being stiffer than some of the other boats mentioned.
You will also find that she is nice and predictable as she heels. She will not suddenly roll over on you, but will just heel a few more degrees as it gusts up. This is part of her being stiffer than some of the other boats mentioned.
amadon light
Member II
497
497 was the area i was refering to as orig. as it was listed in the specs. i ve seen listed hope to try yhe boat soon engine refit is near completition and the new sprit is now outfitted thanks for the info as always you guys are a breath of clean air Loyd Engle
497 was the area i was refering to as orig. as it was listed in the specs. i ve seen listed hope to try yhe boat soon engine refit is near completition and the new sprit is now outfitted thanks for the info as always you guys are a breath of clean air Loyd Engle
Defining "Stiff"
Probably not news to anyone reading/posting here, but...
I can remember some occasions when I have tried to reason with newer sailors over their definition of "stiffness" and how it related to a boat being "tippy" and how this was not proof one way or the other as to a given boat being "stable" or not.
Boring History: Back when I was first learning I went sailing on a friend's Aquarius 23. The owner loved the roomy interior with a real Head Compartment. He said it was very stable. Thing was, it had a firm chine and so was indeed "stiff and stable" when one stepped aboard. Under sail, though, it was wicked... get hit by a puff and the boat would heel over quickly and pop most of the rudder out of the water and round up suddenly. Even though my sailing knowledge was mostly from reading and a little dinghy sailing on nice days, I sensed that this was just wrong.
We soon were shopping for our own trailerable, and after trying some flat bottom boats like the SJ-21, and thinking about the meaning of stability, started looking for a boat with Final Stability and decided not to focus on Initial Stability. In the NW, in the 70's, that naturally led us to a Ray Richards-designed Ranger 20.
It would heel down several degrees when you stepped aboard at the dock, and heel over quickly to about 15% to 18% beating to weather. Getting water on the side deck, though, was very difficult. In contrast to other small cruisers that (in our opinion) would deceived you with their "feel" when you boarded and then heel over God-knows-how-far under sail in stronger winds, we felt like those boats were not nearly as "Stiff" as our Ranger.
From looking at several E-31's and spending a little time on one, That design looks to me to have slack bilges. I would guess (and it's only my SWAG) that it gets board-stiff when heeled down to its designed sailing lines.
BTW, not to disparage firmer chines, either... it does all depend on the design as a whole, with ballast ratio, beam-length, and some other etc. taken into account.
This last Saturday, on a 20 mile cruising race to windward with the later afternoon winds peaking at about 18 kts, we never got water on the side deck (135% genny) and a friend with an earlier IOR-shape Yamaha 33 running his plastic 150% genny never wetted the deck either... but a higher performance G&S designed 35 footer flushed their side decks several times.
Subtle stuff, both science and art, go into yacht design. And that is what I would imagine would make the BK-designed E-31 quite stiff and confidence-inspiring as it heals to its lines. But you all knew that!
Loren
Probably not news to anyone reading/posting here, but...
I can remember some occasions when I have tried to reason with newer sailors over their definition of "stiffness" and how it related to a boat being "tippy" and how this was not proof one way or the other as to a given boat being "stable" or not.
Boring History: Back when I was first learning I went sailing on a friend's Aquarius 23. The owner loved the roomy interior with a real Head Compartment. He said it was very stable. Thing was, it had a firm chine and so was indeed "stiff and stable" when one stepped aboard. Under sail, though, it was wicked... get hit by a puff and the boat would heel over quickly and pop most of the rudder out of the water and round up suddenly. Even though my sailing knowledge was mostly from reading and a little dinghy sailing on nice days, I sensed that this was just wrong.
We soon were shopping for our own trailerable, and after trying some flat bottom boats like the SJ-21, and thinking about the meaning of stability, started looking for a boat with Final Stability and decided not to focus on Initial Stability. In the NW, in the 70's, that naturally led us to a Ray Richards-designed Ranger 20.
It would heel down several degrees when you stepped aboard at the dock, and heel over quickly to about 15% to 18% beating to weather. Getting water on the side deck, though, was very difficult. In contrast to other small cruisers that (in our opinion) would deceived you with their "feel" when you boarded and then heel over God-knows-how-far under sail in stronger winds, we felt like those boats were not nearly as "Stiff" as our Ranger.
From looking at several E-31's and spending a little time on one, That design looks to me to have slack bilges. I would guess (and it's only my SWAG) that it gets board-stiff when heeled down to its designed sailing lines.
BTW, not to disparage firmer chines, either... it does all depend on the design as a whole, with ballast ratio, beam-length, and some other etc. taken into account.
This last Saturday, on a 20 mile cruising race to windward with the later afternoon winds peaking at about 18 kts, we never got water on the side deck (135% genny) and a friend with an earlier IOR-shape Yamaha 33 running his plastic 150% genny never wetted the deck either... but a higher performance G&S designed 35 footer flushed their side decks several times.
Subtle stuff, both science and art, go into yacht design. And that is what I would imagine would make the BK-designed E-31 quite stiff and confidence-inspiring as it heals to its lines. But you all knew that!
Loren
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larossa
Member II
I have an E31 C sloop rig and I would definitely say the boat is on the stiff side. Up in the Detroit area we get predominately medium to light air, (10 knots or less).We double hand race (jib and main) the boat on Monday nights and when the air is light we struggle, especially down wind. For a headsail I have a 150% and it is much better the original sail which I believe was a 130%. Once the winds pipe up we do pretty well, especially 18 – 20 knots. We generally don’t reef or furl. Most other boats are reefing at this point.
Good Luck,
Brian
E31C Nemo
Good Luck,
Brian
E31C Nemo
497
Amadon,
This sail area is not the original design area by any means. This is simply the total of the mainsail (with no roach), and a 100% jib. It is not what most people sail with.
The reason the brochure and boat specs are done this way is to have a common basis for comparison with other designs. Otherwise you might be comparing a boat with a 100% jib to one with a 150% genoa and when comparing SA/D between boats for example, it will skew the comparison.
So, this is a reference sail area for comparative purposes, but not what the design or recommended sail area is or should be.
Actual mainsail area will be greater than the area of the triangle formed by the mast and boom due to roach, and the headsail area can be whatever you want to use for the conditions.
Hope that makes sense....
Cheers,
S
Amadon,
This sail area is not the original design area by any means. This is simply the total of the mainsail (with no roach), and a 100% jib. It is not what most people sail with.
The reason the brochure and boat specs are done this way is to have a common basis for comparison with other designs. Otherwise you might be comparing a boat with a 100% jib to one with a 150% genoa and when comparing SA/D between boats for example, it will skew the comparison.
So, this is a reference sail area for comparative purposes, but not what the design or recommended sail area is or should be.
Actual mainsail area will be greater than the area of the triangle formed by the mast and boom due to roach, and the headsail area can be whatever you want to use for the conditions.
Hope that makes sense....
Cheers,
S
If you like numbers and formulas, here're some links to have fun with.
From Ted Brewer:
http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html
and here's a fun calculator:
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/forest/2727/flicka_calculator.html
From Ted Brewer:
http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html
and here's a fun calculator:
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/forest/2727/flicka_calculator.html
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Brewer's Site
That was cool. The boat Ted mentioned in his comment, "Storm" is owned and kept by the Barnard family of Quisset Harbor, MA (on the Cape)-they own Quisset Harbor Boat Yard, and build custom wooden boats, including the little Herreshoff 12 1/2 sloops.
I sailed a lot on Storm in the 70's, and as she was an early "rule beater" under the CCA Rule, I recall one Edgartown Race Week where we found we felt we would have the optimal rating using just a 150% genoa, kites, and NO mainsail!. We had the boat measured and rated this way and sailed the whole event with no mainsail (and did so-so if I recall). An example of how folks were pushing the rules even then (she since returned to racing with a mainsail, and can still win). It was not optimal in the end in terms of performance for the rating, but was worth a shot.
Ted and a lot of other well known folks in the industry have put many miles on Storm, and she is a beauty.
Teardrops of old age....
That was cool. The boat Ted mentioned in his comment, "Storm" is owned and kept by the Barnard family of Quisset Harbor, MA (on the Cape)-they own Quisset Harbor Boat Yard, and build custom wooden boats, including the little Herreshoff 12 1/2 sloops.
I sailed a lot on Storm in the 70's, and as she was an early "rule beater" under the CCA Rule, I recall one Edgartown Race Week where we found we felt we would have the optimal rating using just a 150% genoa, kites, and NO mainsail!. We had the boat measured and rated this way and sailed the whole event with no mainsail (and did so-so if I recall). An example of how folks were pushing the rules even then (she since returned to racing with a mainsail, and can still win). It was not optimal in the end in terms of performance for the rating, but was worth a shot.
Ted and a lot of other well known folks in the industry have put many miles on Storm, and she is a beauty.
Teardrops of old age....
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Rhynie
Member III
CapRon,
Good One!
I recall sailing in racing dories in the Caribbean. Some of them would not stay upright with just the mast up and had to be tied to stakes in shallow water just to keep them from laying over on their sides. Takes a lot of finesse to sail them, with crew on slide boards and kingdolas(trapeze), and one guy always bailing.
Good One!
I recall sailing in racing dories in the Caribbean. Some of them would not stay upright with just the mast up and had to be tied to stakes in shallow water just to keep them from laying over on their sides. Takes a lot of finesse to sail them, with crew on slide boards and kingdolas(trapeze), and one guy always bailing.
You don't have to go that far - you just described somethink like our beloved log canoes :
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/article.php?get=4121
:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/article.php?get=4121
Blue Heron
Junior Member
Gotta love me some Bahamian Family Regatta vessels. Thar's some sailors amongest them! :clap: